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C O N F I D E N T I A L TASHKENT 000879 
 
SIPDIS 
 
E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/30/2018 
TAGS: PGOV PREL SOCI PHUM KCOR PINR KTER ENRG UZ
SUBJECT: DAS KROL MEETS UZBEK FOREIGN MINISTER NOROV IN 
TASHKENT 
 
REF: A. TASHKENT 855 
     ¶B. TASHKENT 860 
 
Classified By: Political Officer Tim Buckley for reasons 1.4 (B,D) 
 
¶1. (C) Summary:  On July 25 Deputy Assistant Secretary of 
State for South and Central Asia George Krol met with Foreign 
Minister Vladimir Norov in Tashkent.  The atmosphere was warm 
and cordial, and Norov framed his remarks in the context of 
President Karimov's positive July 22 meeting with the 
Ambassador, during which Karimov called for more concrete 
bilateral engagement.  DAS Krol conveyed the message that the 
U.S. wants to take pragmatic steps to engage across the board 
in all areas -- security, economic, governance, and human 
rights - and that we have many common interests to pursue. 
However, DAS Krol noted that Uzbekistan still has an image 
problem stemming from Andijon that needs to be overcome. 
 
¶2. (C) Norov blamed corruption in Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan 
for exacerbating the effects of the severe winter, and also 
complained about terror groups, narcotics, and counterfeit 
goods that flow into Uzbekistan from these neighbors.  He 
also expressed resentment about Russia's historical influence 
and predatory gas policies.  On Afghanistan, Norov restated 
Uzbek criticisms of the Karzai-led government and continued 
pushing Karimov's 6 plus 3 plan; nonetheless, he said 
Uzbekistan is ready to expand electricity and rail 
connections to Afghanistan.  The Government of Uzbekistan 
appreciated DAS Krol's visit, the latest in a series of 
high-level Department officials to visit after a long dry 
spell.  We expect continued sharp divisions on the Andijon 
legacy, religious freedom, and human rights, but it appears 
that the Uzbeks have moved past the travel restrictions. 
While it was clear the Uzbeks want to engage, it remains to 
be seen whether they will go beyond the nice words expressed 
to DAS Krol and take measures that will allow us to move 
forward on the broad agenda that was discussed.  End summary. 
 
Picking Up Where We Left Off 
---------------------------- 
 
¶3. (C) On July 25 visiting DAS Krol had a cordial two-hour 
meeting with Foreign Minister Norov, who was relaxed and 
willing to provide lengthy, unscripted answers to questions 
instead of stock remarks.  DAS Krol visited just three days 
after President Karimov met with the Ambassador on July 22 
and called for more concrete steps to pick up the pace of 
reengagement (ref A).  Norov referenced this positive 
backdrop and called for returning to the principles set forth 
in the strategic partnership agreement from President 
Karimov's 2002 visit to Washington.  Norov reaffirmed that 
"we are open to constructive dialogue" on bilateral as well 
as regional security issues such as stability in Afghanistan, 
terrorism, and counter-narcotics.  At the end of the meeting, 
Norov proposed setting up a mechanism for more regular 
bilateral discussions.  Norov also indicated that he would 
likely lead the Uzbek delegation to this year's UN General 
Assembly. 
 
¶4. (C) DAS Krol referenced Secretary Rice's meeting with 
Foreign Minister Norov in Paris earlier this year and 
reiterated the U.S. Government's respect for the Uzbek people 
and our desire to return to spirit of the 2002 declaration. 
He added that, although we do not meet eye-to-eye on all 
issues, we have common interests to pursue.  The U.S., he 
specified, wants to take pragmatic steps to engage Uzbek 
society and government across the board in all areas -- 
security, economic, governance, and human rights issues.  Yet 
DAS Krol stressed the importance of moving beyond words to 
actual deeds; in particular, he encouraged the Uzbeks to 
address the measures Assistant Secretary Boucher identified 
on releasing prisoners, implementing a work plan with ICRC, 
engaging with NGO's (including Human Rights Watch). 
 
Afghanistan 
 
----------- 
 
¶5. (C) Norov promptly delved into Uzbek concerns about the 
Taliban regrouping on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and the 
Government of Uzbekistan's desire to "avoid a crisis from 
this concentration of Taliban forces."  He recalled the days 
when the Taliban posed a threat on the southern Uzbek border, 
which Uzbekistan successfully withstood.  Norov delivered the 
oft-stated Uzbek position that the Taliban resurgence is due 
to the corruption of the Afghan government "that does not 
answer its people's needs."  He described Karzai as "not a 
charismatic leader" who is opposed even within his own 
administration; instead, Norov continued, "Afghanistan needs 
someone who can unite its people."  Norov used these 
arguments to explain why Afghanistan was not part of 
Uzbekistan's proposed 6 plus 3 framework to address 
Afghanistan issues. 
 
¶6. (C) Despite Uzbekistan's disdain for the Karzai-led 
government, Norov emphasized Uzbekistan's keen interest in 
Afghanistan's stability and "does not want a repeat of the 
Soviet experience."  After all, he said, "we share a border 
with Afghanistan, whereas someday NATO will be gone."  He 
said the Russia-dominated Collective Security Treaty 
Organization (CSTO) is not a suitable entity to be involved 
since it lacks the expertise to understand Uzbekistan's 
border.  Norov also said Uzbekistan recognizes the long-term 
economic benefits of a stable Afghanistan, and noted that an 
Afghan delegation arrived in Tashkent on July 24 to iron out 
issues related to electricity transmission as well as an 
extension of the railroad line from its present terminus just 
across the Amu Daryo River in Xayraton to Mazar-i-Sharif. 
"We are ready," said Norov, "and a contract will be signed." 
 
Religious Freedom 
----------------- 
 
¶7. (C) Norov also mentioned recent progress in U.S.-Uzbek 
dialogue on religious freedom issues in the wake of 
Ambassador Hanford's recent visit.  (Note:  DAS Krol also met 
with Religious Affairs Committee Chairman Yusupov on July 25. 
 Septel.  End note.)  Norov highlighted that Uzbekistan is 
proud that it never had pogroms of the sort which occurred in 
Russia and Ukraine, and he noted the long history of Bukharan 
Jews coexisting peacefully with Muslim neighbors.  He pointed 
to Kyrgyzstan as having "stressful religious issues, 
especially in the south."  He said there will still be 
differences of opinions on this issue reflected in an 
exchange of letters, but he restated the openness to dialogue. 
 
¶8. (C) Norov explained that Uzbekistan has to contend with 
destabilizing religious terrorist groups, which influences 
its stance on religion.  He said that "no one can change the 
words of the Koran, but they can interpret it anyway they 
want.  We do not want Wahabbism, but rather religion in our 
own traditions."  He maintained that Uzbekistan protects 
religious rights despite its concerns, but asked "should 
freedom for Muslims equate to tolerating Hisb-ut-Tahrir 
(HT)?"  Norov added that "I am a Muslim, but I do not want a 
jihad or a caliphate."  Therefore, he said that separation of 
church and state is important to Uzbekistan's stability.  Yet 
he also conceded that "jail is not best place for fighting 
extremism; rather, education is the key." 
 
Neighbors Have Problems... 
-------------------------- 
 
¶9. (C) Karzai and the Afghan government are not the only 
target of Uzbekistan's wrath, as Norov was full of enmity for 
Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan throughout the meeting.  DAS Krol 
asked about the prospect of another tough winter with severe 
conditions for the Kyrgyz and Tajik people.  Norov said 
Uzbekistan is following the situation closely and indeed 
expects "crises" again due mainly to endemic corruption. 
"These are not real countries," he stated scornfully, "and 
 
there are no attempts at reform."  Norov was particularly 
harsh on President Rakhmon, whom he accused of building a 
palace during a time of suffering, and he added that "people 
don't respect or even keep his picture anymore."  Norov also 
said, again particularly of Tajikistan, that "the clan system 
filters money away" and the country "is living off grants." 
Whereas Uzbekistan devotes 51 percent of its budget to social 
programs, according to Norov "Tajikistan doesn't do 
anything."  This is reflected in growing income disparity in 
those countries, he stated, while in Uzbekistan the highest 
paid officials earn only seven times the minimum wage 
received by the lowest strata.  (Comment:  It is ironic to 
hear such criticism coming from the Government of Uzbekistan, 
which has long been accused of exactly the same corruption, 
resistance to reform, clan influence, and income disparity 
between elites and non-elites.  Norov did his best to portray 
Uzbekistan as a bastion of prudent governance on a wild 
frontier.  End comment). 
 
¶10. (C) Norov said neighboring countries constantly complain 
about Uzbekistan's strict border controls vis-a-vis its 
neighbors, which he said is necessary because of the steady 
flow of counterfeit goods and narcotics, particularly from 
Kyrgyzstan concerning the former and Tajikistan the latter. 
While there are agreements within the framework of the 
Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), Norov said they are 
not applicable to products from third countries.  He 
explained that "the Kyrgyz economy collapsed mainly because 
China destroyed it with cheap imports."  He pointed out that 
"up to four thousand Chinese merchants can regularly be seen 
trading in the Kara-Suu Bazaar" just across the border in 
Kyrgyzstan. 
 
¶11. (C) Norov criticized Kazakhstan as having 
disproportionately higher crime and incarceration rates than 
Uzbekistan, which he attributed to Uzbekistan's enlightened 
liberalization of its criminal justice system.  Plus, Norov 
said Kazakhstan "would have a major financial crisis if not 
for the help of oil."  Turkmenistan was the only neighboring 
country to receive praise from Norov, who noted that "its 
policies have changed in a cardinal way since President 
Berdimuhamedov took over."  According to Norov, this has 
directly resulted in improved bilateral relations.  He also 
pointed out that the two countries have a lot in common, 
particularly as gas exporters. 
 
But Uzbekistan is Poised for Success 
------------------------------------ 
 
¶12. (C) Norov proudly noted that Uzbekistan is in a position 
to attract investment based on cheap energy, abundant natural 
resources, and a quality labor force.  He cited the 
confidence that General Motors had in making its substantial 
investment here, which will result in the assembly of more 
than two hundred thousand cars this year.  He predicted that 
many ancillary jobs will be created as suppliers rush to 
establish a presence near GM, which he sees as contributing 
to Uzbekistan's growing manufacturing clout.  Norov also 
lavished praise on the Uzbek education system that is 
producing the talent that companies are looking for. 
 
¶13. (C) Both Norov and Ataev indicated that Karimov 
recognized the need to leave as a legacy a state based on 
durable institutions rather than one that would rise and fall 
with one man.  Hence, they noted the plethora of recent laws 
and decrees aimed at cardinal judicial reform, including the 
habeas corpus law, elimination of the death penalty, 
establishment of a judicial research center, and 
strengthening the Uzbek bar association. 
 
Water 
----- 
 
¶14. (C) Water issues are another sore point in Uzbek 
relations with Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.  Norov lamented 
 
that Uzbekistan is getting "only half of the water necessary" 
because its neighbors are releasing water in winter (to 
generate electricity) and holding more back in the summer. 
He mentioned that they sell electricity to Afghanistan and 
"throw away water," and Norov worriedly noted that Pakistan 
also wants to obtain more energy from Kyrgyzstan and 
Tajikistan.  Norov said Uzbekistan is adamant that 
hydro-power projects "must correspond to international 
conventions."  Norov stated that the UN Convention on 
Trans-National Water Resources supports the Uzbek position 
that mountain-source water does not exclusively belong to the 
Kyrgyz or Tajiks.  He reaffirmed that Uzbekistan should not 
pay its neighbors for water and, as for the argument that 
they have to maintain infrastructure such as dams and 
turbines, Norov said they greatly benefit from the cheap 
power generated and so this argument is weak. 
 
Andijon 
------- 
 
¶15. (C) When DAS Krol raised the negative impact of Andijon 
on Uzbekistan's image in Washington, Norov elaborated about 
how fighters crossed into the Uzbek part of the Ferghana 
Valley after the revolutionary events in Kyrgyzstan in March 
¶2005.  Norov emphasized that the participants took hostages, 
killed innocents, and destroyed government installations; 
yet, the Western press "spread one-sided information."  He 
criticized Al Jazeera for recently running an Andijon 
documentary seven times that he denounces as full of false 
information, such as images of snipers on rooftops that Norov 
insists were terrorists and not government personnel.  He 
continued that human rights defenders fuel the misinformation 
in the press by competing with each other to raise the death 
tolls reported from the scene.  Nonetheless, Norov (as did 
National Security Council Secretary Ataev in a separate 
meeting) admitted that Uzbekistan had made mistakes in 
dealing with Andijon, but was now looking to the future.  DAS 
Krol emphasized the need to deal with the effects of the 
tragedy and ensure that it is never repeated. 
 
¶16. (C) Comment:  We agree that there were inaccurate reports 
about the Andijon incidents that made their way into the 
press; crimes were committed and film evidence confirmed that 
there were indeed armed insurgents gathered in the square on 
the fateful day.  However, the Government of Uzbekistan has 
never grasped that responding to crises with secrecy and 
cover ups tremendously hurts its cause.  The explosions at 
the ammunition depot in Bukhara Province on July 10 offer 
another example of this, as panicked residents filled the 
information vacuum by spreading rumors of death tolls in the 
thousands and apocalyptic damage to Kagan city, both of which 
turned out to be overblown.  Ref B.  End comment. 
 
Russia 
------ 
 
¶17. (C) Norov criticized Russia for having gotten rich 
selling gas to the West at the expense of countries such as 
Uzbekistan.  "Forget brotherly history," he said, noting that 
this year Uzbekistan will only sell gas at world prices (even 
though as the DAS noted that this would devastate 
Kyrgyzstan).  Norov also distanced Uzbekistan from the Soviet 
Union's legacy, pointing out that a whole generation of 
Uzbeks has grown up in the era of independence without memory 
of the Soviet experience.  "They know who Britney Spears is, 
but not Brezhnev," he added. 
 
¶18. (C) In a July 18 meeting with the Ambassador, Norov also 
used a surprisingly anti-Russian tone in explaining why the 
Human Rights Watch Country Representative should not be a 
Russian citizen.  He mentioned negative impacts of Soviet 
history such as Bolshevism and arrests of Uzbeks by the 
secret police.  Plus, the USSR "imposed its values on 
Uzbekistan" while disrespecting local customs, he noted 
bitterly.  When the Ambassador noted that the Human Rights 
 
Watch Country Representative was a modern Russian, Norov 
retorted that this is a "xenophobic" Russia in which "Uzbeks 
are getting killed on the streets." 
 
Image of U.S. in Uzbekistan 
--------------------------- 
 
¶19. (C) After discussing the impact of Uzbekistan's image in 
the United States, DAS Krol turned the tables and inquired 
about the U.S. image in Uzbekistan.  Norov stated that it was 
very positive in the USSR days.  When the Soviet Union 
collapsed, he said Uzbeks "expected a Marshall Plan but 
instead got a reality check" in the form of strict IMF and 
World Bank policies, critical entities like Freedom House, 
and "agricultural NGOs who meddled in politics."  Suspicion 
of the U.S. mounted, he explained, especially with war and 
instability in Tajikistan and Afghanistan.  Norov said that 
"mutual trust and objectivity" will fully restore the 
positive image of America in Uzbek eyes.  He cautioned 
against believing everything that human rights activists 
publish on the Internet and including it verbatim in State 
Department Reports, which he said happened in the past 
(although he said the present Ambassador has already 
demonstrated improved objectivity and a better understanding 
of the region). 
 
Comment: 
-------- 
 
¶20. (C) DAS Krol's visit was the latest in a series of recent 
high-level diplomatic visits to Tashkent, which the 
Government of Uzbekistan appreciated.  The Ministry of 
Foreign Affairs promptly granted all requested meetings, and 
the level of detail Norov provided in the lengthy meeting 
suggests Uzbek officials feel much more comfortable talking 
with U.S. diplomats than in the recent past.  It seems the 
Uzbeks have decided to move past the travel restrictions 
rather than freeze the relationship.  The front page photo 
and articles of the Ambassador's July 22 meeting with 
President Karimov in the state-run newspapers also turned 
many heads in Tashkent, and the U.S. star seems to be on the 
rise -- for now.  DAS Krol's meeting was therefore well-timed 
and offered an excellent opportunity to drive home our key 
points that we need to see more progress on human rights, 
religious freedom, and support for Afghanistan.  It was clear 
the Uzbeks want to engage, but it remains to be seen whether 
they will go beyond the nice words about cooperation 
expressed to DAS Krol to take measures that will allow us to 
move forward on the broad agenda that was discussed. 
 
¶21. (U) DAS George Krol has cleared this telegram. 
 
BUTCHER