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FM AMEMBASSY WELLINGTON
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RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC
RHEHAAA/NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASHDC
RHMFISS/DEPT OF ENERGY WASHINGTON DC

C O N F I D E N T I A L WELLINGTON 000035 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SIPDIS 
 
DOE FOR A/S KARSNER 
NSC FOR K. FRASER 
BRUSSELS FOR USEU 
 
E.O. 12958: DECL: 01/17/2028 
TAGS: OVIP PREL PGOV SENV NZ AY AF BM FJ UK IN MY
SUBJECT: NEW ZEALAND:  UNDER SECRETARY DOBRIANSKY'S JANUARY 
15 MEETING WITH PRIME MINISTER CLARK 
 
Classified By: Consul General John Desrocher for reasons 1.5 (b) 
and (d). 
 
This message was drafted by ConGen Auckland and approved by 
Embassy Wellington. 
 
¶1.  (C)  Summary.  New Zealand PM Clark believes the 
indifference of most Japanese to whaling leaves the most 
extreme whaling advocates free to drive GOJ policy.  Clark 
opposes Antarctic tourism and she is pleased with her 
government's efforts to get developing economies to accept 
some responsibility for reducing greenhouse gases.  Clark 
also told Under Secretary Dobriansky she is disturbed by 
Burma's neighbors' attitudes towards that government's 
repression, as well as by European unwillingness to put 
strong conditions on its aid to Fiji.  Clark reported that 
the U.K. believes a dual-track approach is necessary to 
succeed in Afghanistan.  Clark and Dobriansky discussed their 
efforts to promote interfaith dialogue as well as the 
Secretary's possible visit to New Zealand.  End summary. 
 
SIPDIS 
 
----------------- 
Antarctic Tourism 
----------------- 
 
¶2.  (C)  Prime Minister Clark opened her meeting with Under 
Secretary Dobriansky by describing her concern about tourism 
 
SIPDIS 
at the bottom of the world.  Clark said that she "had always 
been down on tourism" in the Antarctic and adjacent waters, 
citing its harm to the area's fragile environment and the 
danger to tourists from the challenging climate and sea 
conditions.  Clark noted that tourism numbers were up, 
particularly in the areas claimed by Chile and Argentina. 
Dobriansky emphasized the U.S. desire to work with New 
Zealand on the problem, and suggested the appropriate 
commission should consider the imposition of binding rules 
governing tourism. 
 
------- 
Whaling 
------- 
 
¶3.  (C) Clark called attention to the controversy over 
Japanese whaling and expressed appreciation for the "staunch" 
attitude of the U.S.  Clark noted that, this season, Japanese 
whalers were far from New Zealand in Australia's Antarctic 
waters, a vast area very difficult to patrol.  Clark argued 
that Japan will relent on whaling only when the attitude of 
the Japanese public changes.  Most Japanese are indifferent 
to whaling, she said, leaving the most adamant proponents 
free to drive GOJ policy. 
 
¶4.  (C) Dobriansky replied that she has met with New 
Zealand's International Whaling Commission representative Sir 
Geoffrey Palmer to consider next steps.  The big challenge, 
Dobriansky explained, was "salvaging the Commission" and 
dealing more effectively with Japan.  With regards to the 
latter, Dobriansky noted she would sit down with USG's Japan 
experts to plot out a strategy to be shared with partners 
like NZ, Australia and the U.K.  Regarding the IWC, Clark 
noted that she has found Malaysia traditionally difficult 
but, in recent conversations, Malaysian Prime Minister Badawi 
has sounded more cooperative. 
 
-------------- 
Climate Change 
-------------- 
 
¶5.  (C) Dobriansky expressed satisfaction with the outcome of 
the Bali Climate Change Conference, particularly the 
commitment of developing countries to contribute to efforts 
to reduce greenhouse gases (GHG).  She promised that the U.S. 
would remain active in climate change negotiations as well as 
in its own major emerging economies program.  Clark 
highlighted her own efforts to "get good statements" on 
climate change from major international meetings in the run 
up to Bali, such as Asian regional meetings (APEC, ASEAN) and 
Commonwealth meetings, in order to draw developing countries 
like India towards GHG commitments.  Clark and Dobriansky 
agreed that a key argument to make to developing countries 
like India is that efforts to reduce GHG offer poor countries 
an opportunity to make technological leaps over the dirty 
technology that fueled much of the developed world's economic 
growth. 
 
¶6.  (C) Energy A/S Karsner described U.S. efforts to tackle 
climate change, citing a USD one billion investment this year 
to produce cellulose ethanol and reduce tailpipe emissions 
from cars by up to 87%.  The U.S. was working with smaller 
developed countries like Sweden and Iceland on GHG reduction 
programs that, if successful, could be scaled up and 
implemented in large economies like the U.S.  Karsner shared 
his desire to "green" our stations in Antarctica, both to 
protect the environment and to reduce costs.  He noted that 
it costs more to deliver fossil fuels to the Antarctic 
stations than to anywhere else on earth and that the U.S. 
wants to work with NZ and others to meet the stations' energy 
needs more efficiently.  Similarly, the U.S. was interested 
in working with NZ in the Pacific on community-scale 
integrated reduction programs that would help reduce 
emissions in very small economies, like the Pacific islands. 
 
-------------------------------- 
Emissions Efforts in New Zealand 
-------------------------------- 
 
¶7.  (C) Dobriansky praised Clark's initiative to ensure that 
90% of New Zealand's energy needs are met by renewable 
sources.  Clark noted that New Zealand already gets 
two-thirds of its energy from such sources and can make up 
the rest with more wind, geothermal and hydro power.  Banning 
new fossil fuel-powered energy generation projects will force 
the country to find alternatives, Clark explained. 
 
¶8.  (C) New Zealand faced particular pressure to be green, 
Clark continued.  "We must put substance into the green 
slogan," Clark said, if NZ is to push back successfully 
against misguided popular concerns about food miles and 
tourists' carbon footprints.  Clark added that agriculture 
and tourism form the basis of NZ's economy and must be, and 
must be perceived to be, environmentally-friendly. 
 
¶9.  (C) On the Secretary's behalf, Dobriansky invited Clark 
to the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference 
(WIREC) in March.  Dobriansky and Karsner pointed out the 
strong interest in the conference from German Chancellor 
Merkel and the Swedish premier. 
 
----------------- 
Secretary's Visit 
 
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----------------- 
 
¶10.  (C)  Clark expressed appreciation for Dobriansky's 
visit, noting that she was the most senior administration 
official to visit New Zealand in quite some time.  Clark said 
that she was looking forward to a possible visit from the 
Secretary, but understood the need to avoid discussing the 
 
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visit publicly until it was officially agreed and the details 
were settled.  Dobriansky promised to pass in Clark's 
interest to the Secretary and the Charge noted that the 
Embassy and Department were working with MFAT on a possible 
program. 
 
----- 
Burma 
----- 
 
¶11.  (C) Dobriansky thanked Clark for her personal 
involvement on Burma, prompting Clark to recall her role as 
the "bad fairy" at a recent ASEAN lunch at which she, to the 
consternation of Burma's neighbors and while seated directly 
across from her Burmese counterpart, condemned the junta's 
 
human rights violations.  China, India and ASEAN "need to 
stand up," Clark continued, explaining that she had recently 
told the Chinese premier that it was time for the PRC to take 
a strong stand on Burma just as it had done on North Korea. 
Clark added that she also raised the issue with her Indian 
counterpart and described the Indian attitude as 
"reprehensible." 
 
---- 
Fiji 
---- 
 
¶12.  (C) Clark complained that, while the U.S. has been very 
supportive of NZ's position on Fiji, the Europeans are "not 
helpful."  She cited European attitudes at the time of the 
Pacific Islands Forum (PIF).  PIF members were ready to 
recommend that a non-military interim leader be appointed, 
but the EU declined to condition its aid on that step and the 
idea faded.  Now, Clark added, New Zealand is "brainstorming 
to find a path around Bainimarama," who can be rigid.  "There 
are others in Fiji to engage," Clark said. 
 
----------- 
Afghanistan 
----------- 
 
¶13.  (C) Clark reported that, during her just-completed visit 
to London, PM Brown pushed for a dual-track approach to 
Afghanistan and expressed regret over the Afghan Government's 
recent expulsion of two European diplomats accused of having 
talks with Taleban leaders.  Her U.K. interlocutors, she 
said, "were surprised by how many Taleban leaders want to 
talk." 
 
------------------- 
Interfaith Dialogue 
------------------- 
 
¶14.  (C)  After Dobriansky reiterated the President's 
commitment to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute by the 
end of his administration, Clark recalled her own efforts to 
promote interfaith dialogue.  Dean Pittman referenced the 
State Department's initiative in that regard, cautioning that 
such efforts by governments "need to be subtle."  It is a 
particular challenge for the U.S., Pittman added, because any 
such initiative from Washington tend to be viewed with 
suspicion by the intended audience.  Dobriansky explained 
that reaching out to Muslim youth was particularly important. 
 Clark agreed, noting with regret the success that extremists 
have had using the Internet to recruit young people. 
 
------------ 
Participants 
------------ 
 
¶15.  (SBU) 
 
New Zealand: 
Prime Minister Helen Clark 
Deputy Secretary Carolyn Forsyth, Ministry of Foreign Affairs 
and Trade (MFAT) 
Andrea Smith, Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet 
Justin Fepulea'i, MFAT 
 
U.S.: 
U/S Paula Dobriansky 
A/S Andrew Karsner, DOE 
David Keegan, Charge d'Affaires 
Dean Pittman, Policy Planning 
John Desrocher, Consul General (notetaker) 
MCCORMICK