This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available.

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 HO CHI MINH CITY 000153 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
 
DEPARTMENT FOR EAP/BCLTV, DRL/IRF, H 
 
E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PHUM SOCI PREL PGOV OTRA KIRF VM RELFREE HUMANR
SUBJECT: CIRFDEL SURVEYS RELIGION IN VIETNAM:  MEETINGS IN HANOI 
AND HCMC 
 
REF:  A) HCMC 0076  C) HCMC 0084 
 
This is a joint Embassy Hanoi-ConGen Ho Chi Minh City cable. 
 
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Summary 
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¶1. (SBU) Local religious leaders offered up fewer specific 
complaints of violent or coercive acts of religious oppression and 
called for greater activism during meetings with a delegation from 
the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) in 
January.  While some government officials alluded to the 
possibility of expanded freedoms in the near future, most hewed to 
the party line on the need to carefully control such things as 
registrations of new churches and ordinations of pastors.  The 
delegation stressed Washington's interest in religious freedom in 
Vietnam and the potential for this issue to become a sticking 
point in an otherwise expanding bilateral relationship. 
 
¶2. (U) Dr. Scott Flipse, senior policy analyst at the U.S. 
Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF), traveled 
through Hanoi, Hue, the Central Highlands and Ho Chi Minh City 
during January 7-16.  He was joined by Mr. George Phillips, from 
the office of Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ), and Ms. Hannah Royal, from 
the office of Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), who traveled in their 
personal capacities under the sponsorship of a U.S.-based NGO, the 
Committee for Religious Freedom in Vietnam, which was represented 
on the trip by Vietnamese-American Catholic priest Tam Tran.  This 
cable reports on their meetings in Hanoi and HCMC.  Reftels report 
on the CIRFDEL's meetings elsewhere in Vietnam.  Septel will 
report on meetings with the new Cardinal of HCMC. 
 
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Government Officials Toe the Party Line 
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¶3. (SBU) In official meetings in Hanoi, Madame Ton Nu Thi Ninh, 
Vice-Chairwoman of the Foreign Relations Committee of the National 
Assembly, stressed that the GVN was always open to dialogue on 
human rights/religious freedom.  In her opinion, the situation for 
religious believers in Vietnam was improving.  While some 
religious leaders are in prison, they were there for reasons other 
than their faith.  Madame Ninh also suggested that many observers 
of religious freedom in Vietnam viewed the country with 
preconceptions and narrowly defined concerns.  She claimed that 
much of the information being spread about religious freedom was 
incorrect and was manipulated by groups overseas to attack the 
GVN.  She specifically named the Committee for Religious Freedom 
in Vietnam, which had advertised its sponsorship for the 
Congressional staff members of the CIRFDEL on its website.  She 
promised that high-level officials were paying increasing 
attention to human rights concerns and attempting to implement 
positive changes.  Congressional resolutions chastising the 
Vietnamese on human rights would do nothing to improve the 
situation, however.  In a brief discussion of refugee issues, 
Madame Ninh thought that reopening in-country processing of 
refugees would raise expectations that could not be met.  If the 
USG insisted, she suggested the programs be renamed and 
repackaged.  While the GVN would not be happy to see refugee 
processing restarted, it would be pragmatic and likely not oppose 
it. 
 
¶4. (SBU) Ngo Yen Thi, Chairman of the national Committee on 
Religious Affairs and Hoang Cong Dung, Vice Chairman of the 
national Committee on Ethnic Minorities, advanced similar views on 
religious freedom in their separate meetings with the CIRFDEL. 
Both officials assured the delegation that the GVN has long held 
policies to uphold freedom of religion, and described the variety 
of religions in Vietnam and rapid growth of Protestantism in 
particular as proof of that fact.  Chairman Thi noted specifically 
that the CPV has identified religion as a need of the people, but 
acknowledged (as did Vice Chairman Dung) that local officials 
sometimes interpreted government policies incorrectly.  He also 
assured the CIRFDEL that the Committee on Religion was motivated 
by a sincere desire to ensure that religious leaders were 
sufficiently trained and of high moral character to lead their 
congregations.  He blamed problems in the Central Highlands on 
separatist elements operating in the Protestant community, noting 
that individuals had been incarcerated in some cases for political 
activities, but not for religious beliefs.  He said the government 
was interested in working with local officials to assist the 
legitimate Protestant churches in the Central Highlands to 
develop.  He thought the situation was more confusing in the 
Northwest Highlands, where organizational problems within the 
government recognized Evangelical Church of Vietnam (ECVN) 
prevented Protestant leaders from guiding new converts.  He 
claimed that arrests connected to serious problems with drug 
trafficking in the area had been incorrectly identified as 
religious oppression. 
¶5. (SBU) The same basic government positions were repeated in 
official meetings in Ho Chi Minh City.  Nguyen Thanh Tai, Vice 
Chairman of the HCMC People's Committee, focused on explaining the 
GVN's stance on the outlawed Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam 
(UBCV).  While he started out by saying that the old UBCV had 
voluntarily integrated itself into the government recognized 
Vietnam Buddhist Sangha (VBS) in 1981 and no longer existed as a 
separate entity, he later admitted the real problem was that the 
UBCV had taken actions to undermine the GVN.  Calling the UBCV 
leadership "self-proclaimed representatives of no one," he 
criticized the problem as one of political action, not religion. 
He said the GVN was just helping Vietnam's Buddhists achieve their 
own goals of unification, yet could not explain why the government 
should be playing a role in that debate in the first place.  Vice 
Chairman Tai told the delegation they would not be able to meet 
with detained UBCV Deputy Thich Quang Do in HCMC during their 
visit, because he was under administrative surveillance for 
undertaking actions "detrimental to the state."  Addressing 
Protestant issues, the Vice Chairman acknowledged communications 
problems between police and believers were responsible for the 
physical altercation at a local house church last year.  He said 
that the court case scheduled for the next morning against Pastor 
Bui Van Ba for attacking police during that incident had been 
postponed for the Tet Lunar New Year.  Responding to a proposal 
from the CIRFDEL, Vice Chairman Tai was open to the idea of 
working with experts from other countries, possibly within the 
ASEAN context, to promote human rights/religious freedom and train 
local authorities. 
 
¶6. (SBU) Vice Director Vo Ngoc Hue of the HCMC Committee for 
Religious Affairs expanded on some of those themes in a separate 
meeting.  Warning the delegation not to believe distortions about 
religious freedom in Vietnam, he dismissed the international 
uproar over several recent cases of alleged oppression.  He 
claimed that the detentions following attempts to hand out 
religious tracts packaged as official brochures during the 
December Southeast Asia Games were related to copyright 
infringement, not religion.   In the case of the altercation 
discussed by Vice Chairman Tai, he pointed out that Pastor Ba was 
not a legally ordained pastor and had been responsible for 
throwing the first punch.  (Note:  Pastor Ba had already confirmed 
the latter claim to ConGenoffs himself.  End Note.)  Mr. Hue asked 
the delegation to take a more comprehensive view of religious 
issues in Vietnam, and stop focusing on a few minor cases of 
individuals who distorted information for their own interests and 
worked to undermine the government.  Dr. Flipse pointed out that 
the way to avoid such problems was to avoid entering known house 
churches in that fashion during worship services, allow more 
pastors to be trained and ordained, and remove the restrictions 
forbidding congregations from building churches outside of their 
homes.  Regarding the UBCV, the Vice Director reaffirmed that the 
delegation would not be able to visit with Thich Quang Do while he 
was under investigation.  (He said the group had been allowed to 
visit imprisoned priest Thaddeus Nguyen Van Ly during their time 
in Hanoi because Ly had already been convicted and sentenced.) 
Mr. Hue was unable to answer questions regarding what sort of 
state secrets the 76-year-old Buddhist monk might have been 
carrying.  Urged to allow the UBCV to register as a legal 
organization independently of the VBS, Vice Director Hue echoed 
Vice Chairman Tai's response that the Buddhists themselves were 
opposed to this plan.  He did seem amenable, however, to separate 
registrations for pre-1975 Protestant denominations outside the 
umbrella of the SECV. 
 
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And Official Buddhist Representatives Don't Disagree 
--------------------------------------------- ------- 
 
¶7. (SBU) Thich Thanh Tu, Vice President of the Executive Council 
of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, rejected claims that religion was 
oppressed in Vietnam.  He asserted that unification of Vietnam's 
disparate Buddhist organizations after 1975 had actually brought 
harmony to Vietnam.  He too claimed that former leaders of the now 
banned UBCV had willingly merged with the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha 
in 1982, and that those now claiming to lead the UBCV were 
misrepresenting themselves, since the organization no longer 
existed.  Thich Hien Phap, Secretary General of the Executive 
Council of the VBS in HCMC, reminded the CIRFDEL of the history of 
the different Buddhist sects in Vietnam, with particular emphasis 
on their political activities during the war years.  He too was 
unable to answer the question of why the VBS would be opposed to 
the establishment of a separate UBCV organization, but said all 
monks should work together for social stability.  While he said he 
respected the UBCV monks as Buddhists, he criticized them for 
allowing themselves to be influenced by outsiders.  Asked for his 
views on the wisdom of drafting a new law on religion (the monk is 
also a National Assembly delegate), Thich Hien Phap cited the need 
to prevent the spread of superstitions. 
--------------------------------------------- ------------ 
Protestants Mixed on Hopes for Change, but Mostly Defiant 
--------------------------------------------- ------------ 
 
¶9. (SBU) Le Khac Dung and Dao Van Khue, of the Executive Council 
of the Evangelical Church of Vietnam (ECVN) in Hanoi, were more 
critical of the Government.  Noting the small size of the ECVN -- 
three pastors and 10 preachers -- they complained that the 
Government had blocked other preachers from being ordained, 
leaving the church unable to meet the needs of its 11 churches and 
six other places of worship.  Dung and Khue said that the 
Government had actually tried to force the ECVN to accept a 
Government nominee as a pastor at one time, but that the church 
had refused.  (Note: It appears that this happened several years 
ago.  End note.)  The two talked of the EVCN's plans to hold a 
national convention, but said that plans were on hold over a 
dispute with local authorities over the Haiphong congregation. 
The GVN had also warned them against accepting new members 
churches from the Northwest Highlands until they could be sure of 
the moral character of the applicants.  They noted that they had 
heard stories about persecution of Hmong Protestants in the 
Northwest Highlands, but had been unable to investigate these 
claims themselves.  Many of the problems, they believed, were due 
to authorities not understanding the Hmong "Vang Chu" religion, 
which they said is actually Protestantism. 
 
¶10. (SBU) According to officials of the government recognized 
Southern Evangelical Church of Vietnam (SECV) in HCMC, the 
situation seemed to have improved a little more with every new 
delegation from the U.S. and other interested countries.  Still, 
they regretted the fact there were so few churches for the 
organization's 1.2 million believers, and that only 400 of 1400 
pastors were registered.  They hoped to break ground on new 
quarters for the new Protestant seminary on a four-hectare site 
this June.  They acknowledged that the problems were worse up 
north.  The SECV leaders said  the treatment of Protestants in any 
given location depended greatly on local authorities, rather than 
any sort of national policy.  They worried that the new law on 
religion currently being drafted in Hanoi would have a cultural 
dimension that would favor Buddhism and indigenous religions over 
Christianity. 
 
¶11. (SBU) In meetings with prominent house church pastors in HCMC, 
the picture was mixed.  While some felt conditions were improving 
in certain parts of the country, others dismissed such claims as 
outright lies.  As has often been the case with visitors in the 
recent past, the pastors generally failed to highlight specific 
abuses within the prior six months to one year, preferring instead 
to rely on older material, such as a local government form dating 
back to 2002, which allegedly requires parents to certify that 
their children will say no to drugs and Protestantism as a 
precondition to enrolling in school.  One pastor mentioned a 
couple that was fined for reading the Bible together, but provided 
few details.  A pastor who is active in the Northwest Highlands 
said the GVN was becoming more and more concerned that the 
region's 1.2 million Hmong (460,000 of whom were Christian) would 
seek to establish an autonomous state.  A pastor currently 
affiliated with the SECV told the delegation he had come to meet 
them privately because he felt restrained from speaking the truth 
in the presence of his fellow legal church leaders.  He decried 
the lack of real church buildings and the difficulties faced by 
Christians in more remote areas of the country. 
 
¶12. (SBU) Meeting with a second group of Protestant leaders in a 
nearby house church because the pastors thought there were too 
many police around the original meeting site, the delegation again 
heard more general statements rather than specific allegations.  A 
well-known pastor once affiliated with the SECV but now operating 
independently claimed the situation was not better or worse, only 
different, as the GVN had adopted new strategies.  These pastors 
agreed that international pressure works, but thought the pressure 
should focus less on registration of individual churches and more 
on noninterference in their affairs.  One of these pastors 
summarized his views for Dr. Flipse the following day at his own 
house church, saying that he wanted direct dialogue with the GVN, 
greater transparency in government decisions on religion, and the 
return of church properties.  He thought the GVN needed to do a 
better job of listening to its own people and trying to understand 
their religious needs.  While he had heard that the GVN was 
considering allowing pre-1975 denominations like the Mennonites, 
Baptists, and Seventh Day Adventists to register, he believed the 
GVN would only allow what it thought it could control.  Under the 
circumstances, he would no longer seek registration for his group 
and hand over management of its affairs to the government, despite 
the fact that he had attempted to register in the past.  He also 
told the delegation that he had recruited 2000 members for his 
Christian Boy Scout troop, by looking for young people with the 
pioneering spirit of the communists but without the communist 
mindset.  Many of the members were living in camps rather than 
with their families and were given regular skills training.  The 
Boy Scouts also operated as something of a security force for 
Christian gatherings. 
 
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Cao Dai and Hoa Hao Still Can't Agree Amongst Themselves 
--------------------------------------------- ----------- 
 
¶13. (SBU) Leading Hoa Hao and Cao Dai dissidents also seemed to 
have gone the route of looking at the big picture, as opposed to 
raising specific abuses.  Blaming the rift within their own 
organization on government opposition to reconciliation, the Hoa 
Hao asked the international community to continue to press for the 
right of religious groups to govern themselves.  They also noted 
that they have their own lines of communication with both their 
counterpart recognized religious bodies and also the GVN, which 
continued to approach them with offers of reconciliation.  Both 
were adamant that they would not join what they considered to be 
government-run organizations.  Neither seemed to place much value 
on working ecumenically to deal with common problems.  (In a 
reminder of the mystical nature of the Cao Dai faith, those 
representatives told the CIRFDEL that they had foreseen changes 
within the next five months in a seance.) 
 
---------------------------- 
Update on Dr. Nguyen Dan Que 
---------------------------- 
 
¶15. (SBU) In a brief detour from the primary focus of religious 
freedom, the CIRFDEL also met with the wife of imprisoned 
democracy activist Dr. Nguyen Dan Que in HCMC.  (As with Thich 
Quang Do, Vice Chairman Tai had already denied a request to visit 
Dr. Que on the grounds that he was still under investigation.) 
She told the delegation she was continuing to make monthly visits 
to the municipal jail, but had still been unable to establish 
contact with her husband.  On her most recent visit, just three 
days earlier, she had followed her normal practice of bringing a 
small amount of high-blood pressure and ulcer medication, and the 
equivalent of USD$65 for food.  She has no way of being certain 
these items reached her husband, but believes they did.  Prison 
officials had told her that her husband was in a cell with one 
other prisoner.  She believes that person was likely placed there 
to keep an eye on her husband.  Prison officials also promised to 
inform her of any medical problems that arose.  Sounding slightly 
more radical than in the past, she said that most Vietnamese 
wanted change, although they were afraid to express their 
feelings.  She regretted the personal sacrifices she had made over 
the past nearly 30 years, but was proud of her husband for 
speaking out.  She thought the new spate of arrests of prominent 
activists last year represented a new tactic on the part of the 
GVN.  She thought her husband would likely be sentenced to 5-7 
years in prison this time, but didn't say why she thought so.  She 
also said the GVN wanted her to write some sort of letter 
requesting an amnesty for her husband, but she could never agree 
to any GVN quid pro quo. 
 
¶16.  (U)  The delegation did not have an opportunity to clear this 
cable before their departure. 
 
YAMAUCHI