This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available.

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 HO CHI MINH CITY 000076 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
 
DEPARTMENT FOR EAP/BCLTV, DRL/IRF, H 
 
¶E. O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PHUM SOCI PREL PGOV OTRA KIRF VM RELFREE HUMANR
SUBJECT: CIRFDEL SURVEYS RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN VIETNAM:  CATHOLICS 
AND UBCV BUDDHISTS IN HUE 
 
 
Summary 
------- 
¶1. (U) Dr. Scott Flipse, senior policy analyst at the U.S. 
Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) traveled 
through Hanoi, Hue, the Central Highlands, and Ho Chi Minh City on 
an official fact-finding mission from January 7-16.  He was joined 
by Mr. George Phillips, from the office of Rep. Chris Smith (R- 
NJ), and Ms. Hannah Royal, from the office of Senator Sam 
Brownback (R-KS), who traveled in their personal capacities under 
the sponsorship of a U.S.-based NGO, the Committee for Religious 
Freedom in Vietnam, which was represented on this trip by 
Vietnamese-American Catholic priest Tam Tran.  Septels report on 
their meetings in Hanoi, the Central Highlands and HCMC. 
 
¶2. (SBU) While in Hue on January 10, the CIRFDEL held official 
discussions with the Chairman of the Provincial People's Committee 
and the Archbishop of the Hue Archdiocese.  The delegation 
declined a number of other official appointments suggested by the 
People's Committee in favor of arranging their own meeting with 
the highest-ranking Buddhist monk of the local branch of the 
outlawed UBCV.  They were less successful in attempts to meet 
secretly with a local dissident Catholic priest at his home, where 
 
SIPDIS 
they were turned away close to midnight by a large security 
detail.  The meetings produced mixed messages on the situation for 
the large Catholic and Buddhist communities in the province (there 
are very few Protestants in Hue).  While their private meetings 
confirmed the very real problems faced by the underground Buddhist 
church and a small number of Catholic dissidents, the official 
meetings sounded a much more positive note on the overall freedom 
to practice religion in Thue Thien-Hue. 
 
People's Committee Cites Overall Improvements, but Slams 
Dissenters 
--------------------------------------------- --------------------- 
- 
¶3. (SBU) In their meeting with Chairman Nguyen Van Me of the Thua 
Thien-Hue Provincial People's Committee, the CIRFDEL outlined the 
potential for the human rights/religious freedom situation in 
Vietnam to slow down an otherwise growing bilateral relationship 
with the U.S.  Citing the weight of the evidence from a large 
number of similar complaints as proof that the situation was 
deteriorating, they affirmed they were seeking nothing more than 
for Vietnam to adhere to the standards it had already acceded to 
in various international agreements and lift the restrictions on 
religious practice and organization.  Raising the continued 
harassment of local monks from the banned Unified Buddhist Church 
of Vietnam (UBCV), they questioned what threat a small group of 
elderly monks could pose to Vietnam's national security.  Noting 
that central government officials in Hanoi blamed local officials 
for any unintended violations of Vietnam's constitutional 
protections of religious freedom, they asked Chairman Me for his 
views on the situation in Hue. 
 
¶4. (SBU) Chairman Me hoped that the United States would see the 
human rights/religious freedom issue in Vietnam through a wider 
and more culturally sensitive lens, and stressed that American 
values, unlike American products, could not be exported wholesale 
without regard to the cultural values of the receiving state.  He 
also focused heavily on the importance of preserving national 
unity and social stability, accusing a small group associated with 
the former southern regime of using religion to regain power. 
Drawing frequently on the legacy of the war and the misdeeds of 
his former adversaries, the Chairman stressed that the GVN had 
chosen not to punish their old foes in the interest of national 
reconciliation, the latest example of which was the visa just 
issued to former Republic of Vietnam Prime Minister and later Vice 
President Nguyen Cao Ky to celebrate Tet with family and friends 
in his homeland for the first time in almost 30 years.  The 
Chairman said he was well aware of the regular Internet traffic 
reporting on alleged violations of human rights/religious freedom 
from both inside and outside the country, but pointed to greater 
economic freedom and the GVN's focus on improving living 
conditions overall as proof of the government's good intentions. 
 
¶5. (SBU) Falling back on statistics to demonstrate what he 
described as an ever improving religious freedom situation, he 
said there were currently 500 Buddhist monks and nearly as many 
pagodas in Hue, a number of which had been recently constructed or 
renovated to serve the province's 440,000 Buddhists (nearly 50 
percent of the population).  The Hue Institute of Buddhism, 
established just five years ago, had trained over 500 monks and 
scholars, some of whom had been sent overseas for post-graduate 
study.  The Buddhists were able to publish religious materials and 
organize charitable activities, such as kindergartens for orphans 
and health care facilities for the poor.  The Chairman described 
similar developments for the province's 55,000 Catholics.  Nearly 
all of Hue's 115 churches -- staffed by 110 priests and hundreds 
of lay workers -- had been rebuilt since the war, and the Hue 
seminary was set shortly to receive 40 new students for its sixth 
incoming class.  Like the Buddhists, the Catholics were able to 
operate orphanages and health centers for the disabled and poor. 
 
¶6. (SBU) Returning to the war legacy and national reconciliation, 
Chairman Me stated repeatedly that the GVN did not want to arrest 
religious leaders, but was forced to do so when they flagrantly 
violated Vietnam's laws.  Even then, he said, they arrested only 
the "soldiers," and only after giving them numerous chances to 
cease their political activities.  He noted that the UBCV's own 
leadership had chosen to integrate with the Vietnam Buddhist 
Sangha (VBS) -- an organization that now represented 99 percent of 
the country's Buddhists -- in 1981.  Dismissing the notion of the 
UBCV as a separate entity, he questioned why the GVN should allow 
a few dissident monks to break away and form an independent church 
when they represented only troublemakers waving the flag of the 
former regime from overseas.  Softening his stance just a bit, he 
observed that the UBCV would not have had any problems if they had 
just operated quietly, without openly declaring their hostility 
and opposition to the government.  Citing the example of Le Quang 
Liem -- a former Hoa Hao militia leader during the war and now a 
vocal critic of the government recognized Hoa Hao religious 
organization -- he claimed that supporters of the old regime had 
simply replaced their military uniforms with clerical robes to 
continue the fight against the current government under the guise 
of religion. 
 
¶7. (SBU) Chairman Me made it quite clear that individuals who used 
the cloak of religion to fight against the government would not be 
tolerated.  He noted that dissident Catholic priest Thaddeus 
Nguyen Van Ly was in prison because he had ignored repeated 
warnings to cease his political activities, not for practicing his 
faith.  He criticized the delegation for attempting to visit 
Father Ly's associate, Father Phan Van Loi, the previous evening, 
and asked why they would want to meet with an underling if they 
had already met with Father Ly in Hanoi.  Asked directly if he 
could give his approval for the delegation to meet with him later 
in the day, he claimed not to even know where Father Loi lived, 
(despite the fact that close to 20 security officials were posted 
outside his home the previous evening when the delegation stopped 
by unannounced).  He did, however, seem to know enough about the 
case to raise doubts as to whether Father Loi had ever been 
ordained as a priest (he was apparently ordained in secret in a 
northern diocese and did not have the Church's permission to serve 
as a priest in Hue).  Noting that Father Loi represented no one 
but himself, he directed the delegation to the materials the 
dissident priest had himself placed on the Internet for insight 
into why his movements might currently be restricted. 
 
¶8. (SBU) Chairman Me quickly dismissed the question of confiscated 
Catholic properties in the province as one of eminent domain, 
although he admitted that some land had been redistributed 
immediately after the war.  Regarding the Shrine of Our Lady of 
Perpetual Help, claimed by the Redemptorist Order, he said the 
former Archbishop of Hue had donated the property to the 
government.  He attributed more recent allegations of government 
intrusion on the grounds of the Thien An Benedictine Monastery and 
the Ke Sung Church to the routine development of necessary 
infrastructure projects (although he made sure to point out that 
the grounds around Thien An had been confiscated originally due to 
their use by former South Vietnamese President Diem as a base for 
anti-communist activities).  Other Catholic properties had been 
turned into much needed schools and health care facilities. 
 
Hue Archbishop Guarded but Mostly Positive 
------------------------------------------ 
¶9. (SBU) Sounding a relatively more positive tone, Hue Archbishop 
Nguyen Nhu The characterized the fundamental issue as conflicting 
definitions of religious freedom.  While the government viewed 
freedom to worship as the overriding goal, the Catholic Church saw 
it as encompassing much more.  He hoped the views of the two sides 
would merge over time.  He already believed that things were 
getting better every year, and hoped that the international 
community would advocate for his church in a sensitive way that 
respected the Asian mentality.  Anything more direct would be 
counterproductive to the goals of the Church.  While they still 
needed government approval to ordain priests, those approvals were 
getting easier to obtain, and he had personally ordained 53 
priests in his 10 years at the Archdiocese.  The seminary, 
meanwhile, was able to draw seminarians from the Archdiocese of 
Hue, Danang, and Kontum. 
 
¶10. (SBU) Describing the Father Ly case as complicated, he said 
that he had often counseled the priest on his behavior and even 
worked out an agreement to move him to a new parish without any 
prodding from the government.  Unfortunately, Father Ly had 
continued his activities at the new parish, despite the 
Archbishop's frequent warnings that priests should not be involved 
in politics.  The Archbishop noted that he had sent a delegation 
of clergy and lay workers to visit Father Ly after his arrest and 
that he had found God in prison.  He knew that Father Loi had at 
one time been under government restrictions after Father Ly's 
arrest in April 2001, but thought the recent presence of security 
agents outside his home the previous night might have been related 
to the fact that police knew the delegation was in town.  He 
stated plainly that Father Loi had no canonical relationship with 
the Hue Archdiocese and had never sought his permission to join. 
(Note:  According to the CIRFDEL's unofficial interpreter, local 
officials had once told Father Loi that he could become part of 
the Hue Archdiocese if he renounced Father Ly.  The interpreter 
also described Father Loi as one of four Catholic priests to call 
for the complete overthrow of the GVN.  End note.) 
 
¶11. (SBU) The Archbishop said they hadn't asked for the return of 
any confiscated properties because government limitations on 
charitable works left them with little use for the old hospitals 
and schools.  He claimed not to know the status of the Thien An 
property, but said the monks were in dialogue with the government 
on the issue.  He didn't think the monks wanted all of the 
original 107 hectares back -- just enough for a buffer zone to 
maintain a spiritual environment.  He was even less sure of the 
status of the Redemptorist property, although he thought the 
government had already built a clinic on the site.  He had heard 
of a physical altercation involving the police and several church 
workers trying to stop road construction outside the Ke Sung 
Church, but didn't think it was very serious.  Looking at the case 
from a legal standpoint, he said the Church was fine with building 
a new road if it was open to the general public and didn't affect 
the spiritual environment.  Nevertheless, the Church had also 
prepared a proposal for an alternative road to be funded by the 
Archdiocese.  As for the Marian Shrine at La Vang -- a property 
located outside the provincial border in neighboring Quang Tri 
Province, but within his Archdiocese -- the Archbishop said that 
while there had been complete freedom for pilgrims over the last 
five to six years, the local district People's Committee still 
refused to recognize the Church's ownership, despite recognition 
at the provincial level.  Overall, he thought relations were 
better with Thua Thien-Hue than with Quang Tri. 
 
UBCV Monks Resist GVN Control 
----------------------------- 
¶12. (SBU) The CIRFDEL made an unannounced stop at Tu Hieu Pagoda 
to visit with Thich Thien Hanh, leader of the influential Hue 
branch of the UBCV.  As with the attempted visit to Father Loi, 
the local authorities seemed to know the delegation was planning 
to visit, and two individuals loitering outside the premises 
entered the monk's chamber bearing wrapped Tet gifts just ahead of 
the delegation.  Those apparent security agents, and another two 
or three who arrived as the meeting began, eavesdropped visibly 
from just inside the door for the first 20 minutes, until Thich 
Hien Hanh rose from his chair and ushered them out the door. 
Although he whispered quite a bit, Thich Hien Hanh did not seem 
uncomfortable speaking in the presence of security officials.  He 
told the group he was feeling well after his hunger strike in late 
October, but was not allowed to leave the pagoda without 
permission.  He had been able to send a monk to visit Thich Huyen 
Quang in Quy Nhon five days earlier and confirmed that the UBCV 
Patriarch's health was good and he was getting adequate medical 
attention.  Unfortunately, there was a large police presence at 
his pagoda, and he appeared to be living under the threat that he 
would be moved to a pagoda near Nha Trang if he did anything to 
attract attention.  For that reason, Thich Thien Hanh asked that 
USG officials refrain from attempting to visit the Patriarch for 
the time being.  The Hue Buddhist leader also acknowledged that he 
was in telephone contact with UBCV Deputy Thich Quang Do, 
currently under unofficial pagoda detention in HCMC, and that he 
was also in reasonably good health. 
 
¶13. (SBU) Thich Thien Hanh blamed the problems of the UBCV on the 
fact that the communists simply didn't like religion and wanted to 
eliminate groups it could not control, but vowed that the UBCV 
would never submit to GVN influence.  He attributed the GVN's 
seemingly schizophrenic treatment of the UBCV, from the spring 
2003 releases of the UBCV's top leadership to the autumn 2003 
crackdown, to a split within the GVN and the Party over how to 
deal with the religious issue.  Under the current restrictions, it 
was difficult to groom young leaders and communicate the basic 
message to UBCV followers, especially when believers could be 
punished simply for visiting monks like him.  Fortunately, he was 
able to maintain contact with the outside world, including to the 
International Buddhist Information Bureau in Paris, through 
Internet hookups hidden inside the pagoda.  He hoped foreign 
governments would use official development assistance to pressure 
the GVN and the Communist Party -- the real beneficiaries of such 
aid -- to change their policies, despite the economic impact on 
the general populace.  The poor, he said, would suffer anyway. 
 
¶14. (U) The delegation did not have an opportunity to clear this 
cable before leaving Post. 
YAMAUCHI