This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available.

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 CAIRO 001416 
 
SIPDIS 
 
NSC FOR PASCUAL 
 
E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/06/2028 
TAGS: BF ECON EFIN PREL CARICOM
IR, IZ, ER, SU, SY, LE, EG 
SUBJECT: CODEL ACKERMAN MEETINGS WITH MUBARAK, SULEIMAN, 
AND ABOUL GHEIT 
 
REF: A. CAIRO 1193 
     ¶B. CAIRO 1388 
 
CAIRO 00001416  001.2 OF 003 
 
 
Classified By: Ambassador Margaret Scobey, for reasons 
1.4 (b) and (d). 
 
¶1. (C) Summary: In separate June 28 meetings with President 
Hosni Mubarak, EGIS Director Omar Suleiman, and FM Ahmed 
Aboul Gheit, CODEL Ackerman and the Ambassador discussed 
Israeli-Palestinian developments (focusing on Egypt's goals 
for building upon the current "calming period"), Egypt's 
regional relations, and various human rights criticisms of 
Egypt. CODEL Ackerman was composed of Rep. Gary Ackerman 
(D-NY), Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-TX), Rep. Thad McCotter 
(R-MI), Rep. Randy Neugebauer (R-TX), Rep. Russ Carnahan 
(D-MO), Rep. Al Green (D-TX), and professional staff members 
David Adams, Jamie McCormick and Howard Diamond. End summary. 
 
------------------------------ 
MEETING WITH PRESIDENT MUBARAK 
------------------------------ 
 
¶2. (C) In a 75-minute meeting with Mubarak, CODEL Ackerman 
focused largely on Israeli-Palestinian peace process issues, 
with Mubarak noting in regard to the current Egyptian-backed 
"calming" between Israel and Hamas that, "Hamas cannot be 
trusted, but at least we can try to make them calm for the 
time being."  Mubarak observed that "Gaza is not only Hamas," 
and therefore, he had asked EGIS Director Omar Suleiman to 
bring the leaders of at least ten Palestinian factions to 
Cairo for discussions.  On kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad 
Shalit, Mubarak opined that, "The more Shalit is spoken about 
publicly, the less chance there is that he will get released. 
 Such talk makes the Palestinians feel he is so important 
that they must keep holding him in return for other future 
concessions."  He stressed that combating tunnels on Egypt's 
borders is "the job of both Israel and Egypt, not just 
Egypt," and that the sea border between Egypt and Gaza is 
"also problematic."  Mubarak detailed Egypt's efforts to 
detect tunnels, asserting that 2-3 tunnels are destroyed 
daily, for a total of 280 destroyed tunnels to date.  Mubarak 
urged that Israel do a better job of patrolling its side of 
the border, so that both countries can better combat 
smuggling - "we cannot control it 100%. We need lots of 
forces to do that." 
 
¶3. (C) In lengthy remarks critical of Iran's "trouble-making" 
regional role, Mubarak noted that a variety of Iranian 
officials have visited him to make the case for rebuilding 
diplomatic relations between Cairo and Tehran.  Mubarak said 
that he had offered to restore relations if the Iranians 
would (1) return to Egypt some extremists, now resident in 
Iran, who were involved in the 1981 assassination of Anwar 
Sadat, and (2) rename Tehran's Islambuli street (named after 
Sadat's assassin).  He said the Iranians had made "many 
promises, but never delivered" and that over the past few 
months, the Iranians have eased up on the effort to engage 
with Egypt. He observed that Iran is "dangerous, 
over-confident, and threatening."  When queried by Rep. 
Ackerman as to the extent of Egypt's economic relations with 
Iran, Mubarak said that commercial contacts are "quite 
limited, because I do not trust them."  He also said that he 
expects to cross paths with Syrian leader Bashar Al Assad at 
the mid-July Euro-Med summit in Paris - "we will shake hands, 
but there will be no substantive meeting."  Mubarak 
emphasized that he is still not prepared to invite Assad to 
Egypt, "because he has said so many things against us." On 
Iraq, Mubarak observed that a "fair dictator" is needed, and 
that "it would be a big mistake for you to leave suddenly. A 
strong leader, and capable armed forces and police are needed 
before you leave."  He noted that Egypt is prepared to host 
and train 2,000-3,000 Iraqi forces every few months, but that 
the offer had not been acted upon by the Iraqis. 
 
¶4. (C) In response to Rep. McCotter's question about recent 
sectarian violence at an Egyptian monastery (ref A), Mubarak 
said that the issue is a dispute over land, not an 
inter-religious problem. Noting that the land in question 
belongs "neither to the Copts nor the Muslims, but to the 
state," Mubarak said that the issue has been exaggerated by 
the media, and that the reality is that Christians and 
Muslims live "easily together" in Egypt. Following a Mubarak 
monologue on the dangers of the Muslim Brotherhood (MB), Rep. 
Ackerman noted that the U.S. is supportive of Egyptian 
efforts to crack down on extremism, but that "there is a 
difference between terrorists and domestic political 
opposition. If your policy is to kill all the weeds in your 
garden, you will probably end up killing all the flowers as 
well.  It is so important to have an increased tolerance of 
 
CAIRO 00001416  002 OF 003 
 
 
the legitimate opposition here, so that it is not suppressed, 
leaving Egyptians with only illegitimate and terrorist 
outlets to turn to." Mubarak responded by elaborating further 
on the threat posed by the MB. When Rep. Jackson-Lee inquired 
about "Egyptians who have been thrown in jail simply for 
speaking their minds," Mubarak responded "That is impossible! 
Only terrorists get put in jail." He opined that freedom of 
the press has improved dramatically ("I have opened up the 
gates of freedom to the maximum"), with journalists 
constantly criticizing the government, and that only those 
who break the law are put in jail. 
 
¶5. (C) Rep. Neugebaeur inquired about Egypt's planned nuclear 
program, which Mubarak stressed "is for nuclear power only. 
We are a party to the NPT, and of course will allow 
inspections, as we have nothing to hide."  Asked by Rep. 
Ackerman about the impact of the Al Hurra TV station, Mubarak 
said, "I've never seen Al Hurra - it is better for you to 
close it. Anti-Americanism is the result of American policy 
in the region, not a propaganda failure." 
 
-------------------------- 
MEETING WITH OMAR SULEIMAN 
-------------------------- 
 
¶6. (C) In a subsequent meeting, EGIS Director Suleiman 
asserted that the "real threat" is extremism, and underlined 
what the Egyptians plan to do to combat it - (1) strengthen 
relations and coordination with the Israelis, (2) support 
Mahmoud Abbas, and (3) bring the Palestinian Authority (PA) 
back to Gaza. He opined that Hamas is under pressure, as the 
Gazan population is very poor and "becoming wild." Suleiman 
enumerated the benefits of the "calming" period that he 
engineered as the lack of violence preventing which prevents 
a further inflaming of Palestinian emotions (and the 
resultant increase in Hamas' popularity) due to TV footage of 
Palestinians injured and killed by Israelis. He also said the 
"calming" allows for Israeli cities near Gaza to not be 
threatened.  Ultimately, Suleiman hopes that if the quiet 
period persists, jobs can be found for Gazans, and thus their 
hope for the future will return.  Outlining an overall 
three-stage vision for the future, Suleiman said first, calm 
in Gaza must be achieved, to be followed within weeks by 
talks regarding Shalit's release.  After that, a dialogue 
will be started about returning the PA to Gaza, using as an 
incentive the "sweetener" that Rafah will be re-opened, under 
Israeli and European observation, with the PA in control. 
 
¶7. (C) Suleiman opined that the first few days of the 
"calming" period had not been ideal, but that he had 
counseled the Israelis to be patient, as "it takes time for 
Hamas to get things under their full control."  He said that 
he was encouraging indirect negotiations between Hamas and 
Israel, and that on July 15, "we will start negotiating on 
principles for how Shalit will be released."  Suleiman also 
noted his appreciation for USG-provided tunnel detection 
equipment, which he said would be operational in August. 
 
8 (C) Suleiman repeated throughout the meeting his goal of 
creating a "new atmosphere" that can "build confidence, keep 
the region quieter, and give Abbas and Israel a better chance 
of achieving agreement on final status issues." He said that 
before the end of the year, the Palestinians and Israelis 
need to reach some sort of understanding - "not necessarily a 
final agreement, but something tangible" - on border issues, 
Palestinian refugees, and Jerusalem. He advocated that Israel 
offer Palestinians the opportunity to come back to Israel for 
"family unification" purposes, opining that "not that many, 
maybe only ten to fifteen thousand" will actually want to 
return, but that such an offer would "satisfy the Palestinian 
desire for return."  Suleiman also urged enhanced economic 
support for the Palestinians from the international community 
- "the economy has to improve, and give people hope." He also 
commented that, "the Israelis must help Abbas by lifting 
their siege and giving security responsibility to the PA, 
thereby giving the PA some credit .... Give the PA a chance 
to prove they are capable." 
 
¶9. (C) Ackerman queried Suleiman as to whether 750 Egyptian 
personnel were consistently at posts along the border; 
Suleiman confirmed that the Egyptians are currently 
maintaining a constant presence of 750.  In response to 
queries about Hamas' popularity, Suleiman averred that it has 
decreased, stating that, "Palestinians are suffering, and 
they blame Hamas, not Israel." 
 
------------------------ 
MEETING WITH ABOUL GHEIT 
------------------------ 
 
CAIRO 00001416  003 OF 003 
 
 
 
¶10. (C) In a later meeting with FM Ahmed Aboul Gheit, the FM 
complained to the CODEL that the U.S. ESF package to Egypt 
"has been halved to $200 million annually, while Egypt is 
paying debts and accruing interests to the U.S. of $350 
million per year, with the net result that Egypt is paying 
you $150 million per year. This hurts us, and between two 
allies, the poorer party should not be paying the richer 
country." Aboul Gheit argued that Egypt is a pillar of 
stability in the region, but will not be able to maintain 
that stability if the economy does not improve, jobs get 
created, and the bread subsidy continue to get paid.  On 
relations with the U.S., Aboul Gheit noted that "we are not 
estranged, we work together with honest discussions, but we 
do not understand why we should be paying you $150 million 
per year."  During a lengthy discussion on the centrality of 
the peace process, and the need for both Palestinians and 
Israelis to make concessions, Aboul Gheit observed that 
paradoxically, the "calming" period might help Hamas to 
strengthen its standing with Palestinians - "Hamas is 
offering law and order in Gaza, but also economic 
deprivation. With this calming, Israel might resume the flow 
of commodities and trade with Gaza, so the quality of life 
there might improve. Meanwhile, nothing is improving in the 
West Bank, where the PA is in control, so Hamas looks better 
than the PA." 
 
¶11. (C) Turning to Lebanon, Aboul Gheit noted that he was 
urging the Israelis to "give Shebaa Farms to the UN - that 
would take away Hizbullah's pretext for being in Lebanon, and 
therefore corner both them and the Iranians." He remarked 
that there was little Israeli enthusiasm for such an 
approach. On Sudan, the FM noted his frustration with the UN. 
He said that Egypt had offered the UN two Egyptian 
battalions, "roughly 3,500 people, to work under the UN as a 
hybrid force.  And we are now ready to commit even a third 
battalion, to help stabilize Darfur." Aboul Gheit said that 
the UN has agreed to take one Egyptian battalion, but wanted 
a second battalion from the Europeans or Nepal, "but the 
Sudanese will not agree to this." 
 
¶12. (C) Aboul Gheit became visibly irritated when pressed on 
Egypt's recent forcible return of Eritrean refugees to 
Eritrea (ref B), noting that UNHCR officials are "lazy" and 
have not interviewed Eritreans for resettlement, while 
meanwhile the refugees are "doing terrible things here in 
Egypt, and thus we do not want them here."  He asserted that 
those who criticized Egypt for returning the refugees should 
offer to take refugees themselves, rather than pressing Egypt 
to do so: "If you want refugees, we can give you 1000 today, 
or maybe you can give us $50 million to care for them here!" 
He pronounced that "out of 4 million refugees resident in 
Egypt, UNHCR has resettled only 16 in the past year!" 
Responding to questions about journalists and bloggers being 
detained and sectarian tensions, Aboul Gheit and one of his 
assistants asserted that Egyptian law guarantees full 
equality to all Egyptians, of any religion or creed. "The 
problem is that Egyptian citizens are not yet at an advanced 
stage of development .... how, as a government, do you 
maneuver in a society prone to violence? Remember, we are not 
America, we are not Europe. We are Sicily!" 
 
¶13. (U) This cable was not cleared by CODEL Ackerman. 
SCOBEY