P R 162340Z NOV 89
FM SECSTATE WASHDC
TO AMEMBASSY PRETORIA PRIORITY
AMEMBASSY LUSAKA PRIORITY  0000
INFO AMCONSUL JOHANNESBURG
AMCONSUL CAPE TOWN
AMCONSUL DURBAN
AMEMBASSY LONDON
AMEMBASSY DAR ES SALAAM
AMEMBASSY HARARE
USOFFICE WINDHOEK
USMISSION USUN NEW YORK
AMEMBASSY MAPUTO

S E C R E T  STATE 368870 
 
LONDON FOR KOLKER 
 
E.O. 12356: DECL:  OADR 
TAGS: ANC SF PREL
SUBJECT: MEETING WITH ANC LEADER THABO MBEKI 
 
REF: STATE 319466 (NOTAL) 

¶1.  SECRET - ENTIRE TEXT. 

¶2.  SUMMARY:  ANC INTERNATIONAL DEPARTMENT DIRECTOR THABO 
MBEKI MADE HIS SECOND VISIT TO WASHINGTON IN AS MANY 
MONTHS NOVEMBER 9 - 14.  MIXING CALLS IN WASHINGTON WITH 
TRAVEL ELSEWHERE (HE ARRIVED IN NEW YORK NOVEMBER 1), 
MBEKI OFFICIALLY OPENED THE ANC'S WASHINGTON OFFICE WITH 
A RECEPTION HOSTED BY CONGRESSMAN DELLUMS ON NOV 9 AND 
HAD MEETINGS AT THE DEPARTMENT ON NOV 13.  IN A MEETING 
WITH ACTING AF ASSISTANT SECRETARY WARREN CLARK, MBEKI 
SAID THAT THE RECENT RELEASE OF POLITICAL PRISONERS HAS 
BEGUN A PROCESS THAT IS BOUND TO HAVE AN IMPORTANT IMPACT 
ON SOUTH AFRICA'S FUTURE.  HOWEVER, HE CONTINUED TO ARGUE 
THAT PRESIDENT DE KLERK DOES NOT DESERVE CREDIT FOR THESE 
AND OTHER RECENT POSITIVE MOVES.  EXPANDING ON REMARKS 
MADE IN OCTOBER TO AS COHEN (REFTEL), MBEKI ALSO 
SUGGESTED THE ANC ACCEPTS THE NEED FOR BOTH SIDES TO 
COMPROMISE ON THE ISSUE OF GROUPS.  HE INDICATED, 
HOWEVER, THAT WHILE COMPROMISE ON CULTURAL/EDUCATION 
ISSUES MAY BE POSSIBLE (THOUGH DIFFICULT), SCHEMES TO 
PROTECT WHITE POLITICAL POWER ARE UNACCEPTABLE.  END 
SUMMARY. 

------------------ 
LEGALIZING THE ANC 
------------------ 

¶3.  HA ASSISTANT SECRETARY SCHIFTER, NSC STAFFER DAVID 
PASSAGE, S/P STAFFER WALTER KANSTEINER, AF/S DIRECTOR 
PERITO AND AF/S OIC GALLUCCI ALSO PARTICIPATED IN CLARK'S 
MEETING WITH MBEKI.  MBEKI TOLD THE ASSEMBLY THAT ONE 
COULD NOT DISMISS RECENT MOVES BY DE KLERK TO FREE 
POLITICAL PRISONERS AND ALLOW PEACEFUL PROTEST AS SIMPLY 
COSMETIC.  DE KLERK, HE SAID, HAS OBVIOUSLY BEGUN A 
PROCESS THAT CANNOT BE STOPPED.  IT MUST LEAD AT SOME 
POINT TO LEGALIZATION OF THE ANC.  THE RELEASED LEADERS 
ARE UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE TO BE LEADERS OF THE ANC.  IN 
FACT, CONTINUED MBEKI, THE ANC WILL ANNOUNCE SHORTLY THAT 
THE RELEASED SENIORS ARE PART OF THE OFFICIAL ANC 
LEADERSHIP AND WILL ACT FOR AND SPEAK FOR THE 
ORGANIZATION IN SOUTH AFRICA.  OTHER POLITICAL PRISONERS 
LESS PROMINENT BUT ALSO JAILED BECAUSE OF THEIR ANC 
ACTIVITIES ARE ALSO READY TO PLAY A ROLE.  THESE ARE THE 
INGREDIENTS FOR A SUBSTANTIAL ANC MEMBERSHIP INSIDE SOUTH 
AFRICA. 

¶4.  MBEKI SUGGESTED THAT THIS INTERNAL ANC WILL OPERATE 
OPENLY AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT WILL THEN HAVE TO LIFT 
RESTRICTIONS ON THE UDF AND OTHERS.  THIS WILL ALLOW THE 
OPPOSITION TO BEGIN ORGANIZING.  THE GOVERNMENT ACCEPTS 
THAT THIS PROCESS MUST LEAD SOON TO NEGOTIATIONS BECAUSE 
THE ANC WILL GROW STRONGER AS IT EXPANDS OPEN 
OPERATIONS.  THE SAG ALSO UNDERSTANDS THAT IT CANNOT 
RELEASE MANDELA UNTIL IT IS READY FOR NEGOTIATIONS. 
THEREFORE, ACCORDING TO MBEKI, MANDELA'S RELEASE WILL 
SIGNAL THAT DE KLERK IS READY. 

---------------------- 
EVALUATION OF DE KLERK 
---------------------- 

¶5.  WHILE HE ACCEPTED THAT THIS PROCESS WILL HAVE GREAT 
IMPORTANCE FOR SOUTH AFRICA, MBEKI REFUSED TO CREDIT DE 
KLERK WITH GOOD INTENTIONS.  REFERRING TO DE KLERK'S 
MEETING WITH "THE PRIESTS" (TUTU, BOESAK AND CHIKANE), 
MBEKI SAID THAT IT IS STILL AN EDUCATION PROCESS FOR 
F.W.  WHILE DE KLERK LECTURED THE PRIESTS FOR THE FIRST 
30 MINUTES OF THEIR MEETING ON HOW THEY HANDLED THE 
PRESS, THERE WAS THEN A GOOD DISCUSSION ON WHAT THE SAG 
MUST DO.  MBEKI REMARKED THAT IN THEIR REPORT ON THE 
MEETING, THE PRIESTS NOTED THAT WHILE THIS DISCUSSION DID 
NOT APPEAR TO BE NEW GROUND FOR GERRIT VILJOEN, DE KLERK 
WAS NOT AWARE OF THE ISSUES.  MBEKI REPEATED HIS ARGUMENT 
THAT DE KLERK REMAINS WEDDED TO THE GROUPS CONCEPT AND 
HAS UNDERTAKEN POSITIVE STEPS ONLY IN RESPONSE TO 
INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL PRESSURE.  (NOTE:  THIS WAS THE 
CLOSEST MBEKI CAME TO DIRECTLY RAISING THE SANCTIONS 
ISSUE.) 

---------- 
COMPROMISE 
---------- 

¶6.  IN A WIDE-RANGING DISCUSSION ABOUT THE PLACE OF 
GROUPS IN SOUTH AFRICA, MBEKI NOTED THAT THE POLITICAL 
STRUGGLE IN SOUTH AFRICA IS REALLY ONE BETWEEN THOSE 
COMMITTED TO A NON-RACIAL SOUTH AFRICA AND THOSE WHO SEEK 
THE PROTECTION OF GROUPS.  IN THE END, HE SAID, IT WILL 
COME DOWN TO THESE TWO SIDES FACING EACH OTHER AT THE 
NEGOTIATING TABLE.  BUT MBEKI SAID HE ALSO RECOGNIZED 
THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE COMPROMISE ON BOTH SIDES.  HE 
VENTURED THAT IT SEEMS NECESSARY TO DEVELOP SOME FORMULA 
TO GUARANTEE LANGUAGE RIGHTS.  BUT THIS WOULD BE 
DIFFICULT IN PRACTICE SINCE IT WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO 
MANY TO PRESERVE THE SYSTEM IN WHICH SEPARATE STREAMS OF 
CHILDREN GO OFF TO THEIR SEPARATE AFRIKANER AND 
ZULU-LANGUAGE SCHOOLS.  THE IDEAL SITUATION, MBEKI 
CONTINUED, WOULD BE FOR THE SOUTH AFRICAN POPULATION TO 
MIX.  BUT THE RIGHT TO PEOPLE'S OWN CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND 
RELIGION MUST BE GRANTED.  ACCEPTING THIS REALITY IS ONLY 
THE FIRST STEP.  THE HARD PART WOULD BE "CODIFYING" THESE 
RIGHTS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF A COMMON SOUTH AFRICA AND 
WITHOUT RETREATING TO SEPARATE DEVELOPMENT. 
 
¶7.  MBEKI INDICATED THAT POLITICAL COMPROMISE WOULD BE 
MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.  HE REJECTED OUT-OF-HAND AN UPPER 
HOUSE FOR GROUP REPRESENTATION OR ANY ATTEMPT TO WRITE A 
"GROUP REPRESENTATION" CONSTITUTION.  VIS-A-VIS THE 
LATTER, MBEKI SPECIFICALLY REJECTED ANY GROUP-BASED 
FEDERALISM, ARGUING THAT THE ISSUE OF FEDERALISM IN 
GENERAL IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS IN THE SOUTH 
AFRICAN CONTEXT THE EMERGENCE OF RACIAL MINI-STATES.  HE 
INDICATED HOWEVER THAT GEOGRAPHICALLY BASED PROVINCES 
MIGHT MAKE SENSE.  ON THE MATTER OF PARLIAMENTARY 
REPRESENTATION, MBEKI SAID THAT A ZIMBABWE-TYPE SOLUTION 
OF RESERVED SEATS WOULD NOT BE IDEAL.  "OUR WHITE 
COMPATRIOTS", HE NOTED, SEE THIS AS PUTTING THE WHITES 
"OUT OF THE LOOP."  BUT IN THE END, SUGGESTED MBEKI, THAT 
MIGHT HAVE TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. 

------------------------------ 
HOMELAND LEADERS AND BUTHELEZI 
------------------------------ 

¶8.  IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION FROM AMBASSADOR SHIFTER, 
MBEKI REPEATED AGAIN THE NEW ANC HARD LINE ON CHIEF 
BUTHELEZI.  HE SUGGESTED THAT HE WOULD FIND IT EASIER TO 
SIT AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AT THE SIDE OF HOMELAND 
LEADERS SUCH AS TRANSKEI GENERAL HOLOMISA THAN WITH 
BUTHELEZI.  ACCORDING TO MBEKI, HOLOMISA SHARES THE 
NON-RACIAL COMMITMENT AND WOULD NOT SEEK TO REPRESENT THE 
TRANSKEI HOMELAND AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.  (MBEKI SAID 
THAT IN ALL, SIX OF THE 10 HOMELANDS LEADERS ARE IN THE 
NON-RACIAL CAMP.  HE ADDED AT ANOTHER DEPARTMENT MEETING 
THAT THE ANC BELIEVED IT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT TO 
INCLUDE HOMELAND LEADERS HOLOMISA AND ENOS MABUZA IN THE 
CONFERENCE ON A DEMOCRATIC FUTURE THAN SMALL BLACK 
CONSCIOUSNESS AND AFRICANIST GROUPS.)  WHILE BUTHELEZI 
WOULD BE IN PRINCIPLE WELCOME IF HE MADE THE SAME 
COMMITMENT, AT PRESENT, MBEKI SAID, IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT 
TO SEE HIM IN THIS LIGHT WHILE HE IS NOT COOPERATING IN 
EFFORTS TO BRING AN END TO THE VIOLENCE IN NATAL. 

----------- 
CEASE FIRE? 
----------- 

¶9.  IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION, MBEKI SAID THERE HAS BEEN 
NO ANC DECISION TO DESIST FROM VIOLENCE OR UNDERTAKE A DE 
FACTO CEASEFIRE.  RATHER, THE ANC-MK IS CONCENTRATING ON 
BUILDING A MILITARY CAPABILITY WITHIN SOUTH AFRICA.  THE 
ANC RECOGNIZES THAT ITS WAR FROM OUTSIDE SOUTH AFRICA HAS 
BEEN LARGELY INEFFECTIVE.  SO IT HAS GONE FROM BOMBING 
AND HITTING SELECTED TARGETS TO BUILDING A MILITARY MK 
STRUCTURE INSIDE THE COUNTRY. 

------------- 
ANC/PAC TALKS 
------------- 

¶10.  MBEKI DENIED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN ANY ANC/PAC 
TALKS.  HE SAID THAT PAC LEADER JEFF MASEMOLA WAS ADDED 
TO THE LIST OF ANC RELEASEES AT THE REQUEST OF NELSON 
MANDELA.  MANDELA THEN MET WITH MASEMOLA TO ASK HIM TO 
BEHAVE PROPERLY UPON HIS RELEASE SO AS NOT TO REFLECT 
BADLY ON POLITICAL PRISONERS.  MBEKI EXPLAINED THAT 
MASEMOLA HAD FALLEN IN WITH CRIMINAL ELEMENTS WHILE 
IMPRISONED.  (MBEKI TOLD AN EARLIER MEETING THAT THE PAC 
IS "IRRELEVANT.") 

---------------- 
UNGA RESOLUTIONS 
---------------- 

¶11.  MBEKI NOTED THAT THERE HAS BEEN A GREAT DEAL OF 
COOPERATION AT THE UN TO TRY TO PRODUCE CONSENSUS ON 
POSSIBLE RESOLUTIONS.  HE ADDED THAT EVERYONE SHARES THE 
VIEW THAT CONSENSUS AT THE UPCOMING SPECIAL SESSION ON 
APARTHEID IS NECESSARY.  MBEKI ASKED WHAT THE U.S. FINDS 
INAPPROPRIATE IN THE OAU HARARE DECLARATION.  CLARK 
RESPONDED THAT WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE REFERENCES TO AN 
INTERIM GOVERNMENT OR LANGUAGE SUGGESTING THE ANC IS THE 
SOLE LEGITIMATE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN 
PEOPLE.  CALLS FOR SANCTIONS ARE ALSO UNACCEPTABLE. 
MBEKI SAID THAT SANCTIONS NEED NOT BE MENTIONED IN THE 
SPECIAL SESSION DECLARATION.  HE ALSO THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE 
TO DEAL WITH HOW TO REFER TO THE ARMED STRUGGLE AND TO 
ADDRESS THE INTERIM GOVERNMENT POINT WITHOUT USING THAT 
PARTICULAR PHRASE.  AT THE LEAST, MBEKI CONTINUED, WE 
COULD AGREE ON WHAT ELEMENTS ARE IN THE "SPIRIT OF 
HARARE" AND WHAT IS NOT.  HE NOTED THAT MANY OF THE 
ELEMENTS IN THE ANC-DRAFTED DOCUMENT WERE INTENTIONALLY 
DRAWN FROM SECRETARY SHULTZ'S 1987 SPEECH ON SOUTH AFRICA 
AND BRITISH FOREIGN MINISTER HOWE'S 1988 EFFORT.  THE ANC 
WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS THE REQUEST TO DEFINE BETTER WHAT 
IT IS FOR.  PERITO REPLIED THAT THESE ARE THE ELEMENTS WE 
FOUND POSITIVE AND THE REASON WE SAID SO PUBLICLY.  BUT 
HE EMPHASIZED THAT WE COULD NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING SMACKING 
OF A 435-LIKE EFFORT OR FULL OF PRECONDITIONS.  MBEKI 
INVITED FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THESE POINTS, PERHAPS IN 
LUSAKA. 
 
 
BAKER