VZCZCXRO9042
OO RUEHROV
DE RUEHRH #1086/01 2350643
ZNR UUUUU ZZH
O 230643Z AUG 09
FM AMEMBASSY RIYADH
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 1424
INFO RUEHXK/ARAB ISRAELI COLLECTIVE PRIORITY
RUEHDH/AMCONSUL DHAHRAN PRIORITY 0173
RUEHJI/AMCONSUL JEDDAH PRIORITY 0266

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 03 RIYADH 001086 
 
SIPDIS 
 
NEA/ARP JBERNDT 
 
E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PGOV PHUM SA
SUBJECT: MOJ DISCUSSES JUDICIAL REFORM, WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND 
CHILD MARRIAGES 
 
REF: A. RIYADH 1012 
     ¶B. RIYADH 361 
     ¶C. RIYADH 875 
     ¶D. RIYADH 1026 
     ¶E. RIYADH 596 
 
RIYADH 00001086  001.2 OF 003 
 
 
SUMMARY AND COMMENT 
-------------------- 
 
¶1. (SBU)  Charge, accompanied by Poloff and Commercial 
Attache, met Minister of Justice Muhammad al-Issa August 19 
to discuss issues including a Commercial Law Development 
Program (CLDP) proposal; judicial reform; women's rights; and 
child marriages.  Al-Issa stressed the importance of judicial 
review and his responsibility to implement judicial reform as 
a key part of the king's wider reform agenda; admitted that 
there were few Shari'a restrictions on women but pointed to 
Saudi customs and radical interpretations of religious texts 
as reasons Saudi women lack legal rights; emphasized the 
reluctance of Saudi society to embrace change (Ref A); 
cautiously agreed with Charge's challenge that laws often 
precede social acceptance and that concepts of equality 
within the Qur'an could be used to guarantee women's rights 
in the future; announced a study on child marriages would 
soon be complete; and expressed enthusiastic support for a 
proposed CLDP program to train Saudi judges.  Throughout the 
meeting, al-Issa was cautious but frank in his discussions 
with the Charge.  END SUMMARY AND COMMENT. 
 
 
UPDATE ON JUDICIAL REFORMS 
-------------------------- 
 
¶2. (SBU)  Charge Ambassador Erdman noted his understanding 
that King Abdullah had replaced the previous minister and 
appointed him (al-Issa) to jump-start the judicial reforms 
that had been passed in 2007 but never implemented due to 
internal resistance from within the ministry and judiciary. 
This move had been part of a broader reform push that had 
also involved replacing not just the Minister of Justice, but 
also the Minister of Education and the head of the Ulema (Ref 
B).  Al-Issa, while careful not to criticize his predecessor, 
concurred this was the context of his appointment, adding 
that he had played a role, as a member of the Grievance 
Board, in developing the judicial reform proposals he was now 
being asked to implement. 
 
¶3.  (SBU)  The reforms (a new Supreme Court with powers of 
judicial review, an expanded system of lower courts, 
redefinition of the role of the Grievance Board, etc.) 
focused on the procedural process, al-Issa explained, proudly 
showing a 5-volume series of books documenting Grievance 
Board decisions from the past year.  While judicial review is 
a foreign concept in Saudi Shari'a courts, "precedents cannot 
be ignored" and the books are intended as reference works. 
Documenting all cases and decisions of the Grievance Board is 
only the first step.  The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) is 
currently deciding which system of judicial review to use -- 
a system based on judicial precedent or a system based on new 
law. Charge noted that judicial review in the United States 
seemed to be a combination of both systems. 
 
¶4. (SBU) Charge asked what were the biggest obstacles to his 
efforts to implement judicial reforms. Not altogether 
convincingly, al-Issa replied that he had been pleasantly 
surprised at how accepting MOJ officials were of the various 
judicial reforms.  Thus far, "differing views have been very 
few." Saudi judicial procedures and rules were very clear, 
and any judge found not to be in compliance or spouting 
radical opinions would be dismissed.  Asked how many judges 
have actually been dismissed, he said that to date only two 
officials have been dismissed, and neither was a judge.  He 
was adamant there were no radical judges in the Saudi 
judiciary, maintaining that "no judge discriminates against 
any person, nationality or race." (NOTE:  There is ample 
evidence indicating widespread discrimination against Shi'a, 
women, and others in the Saudi judicial system. END NOTE.) 
 
 
WOMEN'S RIGHTS: CUSTOM V. LAW 
----------------------------- 
 
¶5. (SBU)  Charge said whenever he asked Saudis about 
restrictions on women's rights, he was always assured these 
restrictions stemmed from custom and tradition, not Shari'a 
law.  The Prophet's first wife, Khatija, had been a 
businesswoman and well-to-do trader, and he himself had 
started out as her employee.  If the Qur'an and Shari'a were 
 
RIYADH 00001086  002.2 OF 003 
 
 
really the basis of the Saudi legal system, how did he 
(Minister al-Issa) reconcile current treatment of women with 
these sources of law?  It seemed incompatible with how the 
Prophet treated his own wife. Al-Issa replied that the Qur'an 
was all about equality before the eyes of God. There were 
"few Shari'a legal restrictions on Saudi women."  Social 
customs, tradition, and radical interpretations of religious 
texts were the root of the problem, he said, citing a 
sociological theory that argues that societies by nature are 
resistant to change (Ref C and D).  For women to be given 
their legal rights, there must be social acceptance.  With 
80% of the Saudi population being "very conservative," this 
was very difficult to achieve. 
 
¶6. (SBU)  Charge responded by asking al-Issa if he was in 
effect saying that women's rights -- and human rights in 
general -- were in practice influenced more by public opinion 
than by Shari'a law. If so, wouldn't that be putting man 
before God? (Unfortunately, this last point was omitted from 
the translation, though al-Issa, who speaks some English, may 
have understood it.) In the United States, we had done a 
similar thing when it came to rights for black Americans. 
There were perfectly good laws, but we allowed them to be 
ignored or overridden by the custom of denying rights and 
equality.  Eventually, we understood the injustice of such 
actions and used law to change custom, not the reverse. 
Perhaps the Kingdom should use the concepts of equality 
within Shari'a law to change custom and guarantee women's 
rights through rule of law, Charge suggested. 
 
 
CONSERVATIVE NATURE OF SAUDI 
SOCIETY CAN'T BE IGNORED 
--------------------------- 
 
¶7. (SBU) Al-Issa acknowledged the argument but repeated it 
was hard to ignore the conservative nature of Saudi culture. 
In the future, he hoped, "the law will be the law." 
Increasing women's rights," he continued, "is something that 
must happen step by step."  Charge commented that ensuring 
rights for women in the Kingdom was not just a matter of law, 
it was also a matter of preparing the country against the day 
- whether 50 or 100 years from now - when it would no longer 
be able to rely on resources under the ground for its wealth, 
when the source of its wealth would be its human capital. 
Systematically excluding half of the population from 
contributing their talents and intellect to the country's 
development would put the country at a severe competitive 
disadvantage with other countries.  Fifty years wasn't much 
in the life of a nation, so there was no time to lose in 
expanding women's rights and using law to change custom. 
 
 
THE LEADERSHIP FAVORS REFORM BUT GRADUAL 
PACE IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF SOCIETY 
---------------------------------------- 
 
¶8.  (SBU)  Al-Issa replied that the Saudi government 
"believes in the role of women in society," and highlighted 
the important role played by the Prophet's wife in preserving 
and conveying the Prophet's heritage. Al-Issa stressed that 
the leaders of the country are keen on "achieving the best 
interests of society," but that reform must take into account 
society's willingness to embrace change, especially when it 
comes to women's rights. 
 
 
CHILD MARRIAGES: STILL WAITING ON AN AGE LIMIT 
--------------------------------------------- - 
 
¶9. (SBU)  Talking about the status of efforts to establish a 
minimum age for marriage, al-Issa explained that a committee 
is currently studying the issue and noted that he publicly 
stated (without giving a date for his statement) that the 
committee would release its findings and recommendations in 3 
months.   Charge asked why it should take so long to reach a 
conclusion that marriage of an 8 or 9-year old was wrong? 
Al-Issa responded that the Saudi government does not want a 
"quick fix," but instead seeks to insure a viable solution 
that takes into account all social customs and traditions. 
The committee's recommendations, which will include setting a 
"reasonable" minimum age for marriage, will either be sent to 
the Shura Council and Council of Ministers to be passed in 
the form of new legislation or be delivered as a directive 
from the king.  Al-Issa said that in his personal view the 
legal age for marriage should be set at 18 years. (NOTE: 
Other Embassy contacts have said they expect the minimum age 
to be set at 15 years (Ref E). END NOTE.) 
 
RIYADH 00001086  003.2 OF 003 
 
 
 
 
MOJ WELCOMES TRAINING IN COMMERCIAL LAW 
--------------------------------------- 
 
¶10. (SBU)  Handing over a list of commercial law training 
programs both in Arabic and English, Charge recommended a 
recent proposal by the U.S. Department of Commerce's 
Commercial Law Development Program (CLDP) to provide training 
and legal assistance aimed at strengthening the commercial 
adjudication capacity of judges in Saudi Arabia's courts. 
Charge said that strengthening judicial capacity in the 
commercial area, and particularly in the intellectual 
property rights (IPR) area, would compliment the Kingdom's 
efforts to attract new technologies and foreign investment in 
the IT sector.  Al-Issa, who was already aware of the 
program, welcomed it, adding that had the USG not approached 
the MOJ on this issue, the MOJ would have requested a similar 
training program.  Al-Issa emphasized the importance of and 
need for training of Saudi judges citing that the biggest 
obstacle in increasing the number of judges in Saudi Arabia 
was the lack of qualified candidates.  Charge invited the 
Minister and his staff to work directly with our commercial 
attache, once they had a chance to review the training 
programs being offered that would best suit Saudi needs. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
ERDMAN