VZCZCXRO1263
PP RUEHHM
DE RUEHHI #0286/01 0711029
ZNR UUUUU ZZH
P 111029Z MAR 08
FM AMEMBASSY HANOI
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 7380
INFO RUEHHM/AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH 4424
RHEHNSC/NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASHINGTON DC

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 HANOI 000286 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
SIPDIS 
 
STATE FOR EAP/MLS, DRL/AWH, AND DRL/IRF 
 
E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PHUM PREL PGOV ASEC KIRF VM
 
SUBJECT:  AMBASSADOR VISITS VIETNAM'S LEADING POLITICAL PRISONER 
 
REF:  07 HCMC 0294 
 
¶1. (SBU) Summary: On March 10, the Ambassador met with jailed 
political activist and Catholic priest Nguyen Van Ly ("Father Ly") 
at Ba Sao Prison south of Hanoi.  The almost 75-minute meeting with 
Ly took place in the presence of the prison warden and his deputies, 
who were cordial and cooperative.  Father Ly appeared in good health 
and spirits and spoke strongly and with conviction.  He told the 
Ambassador he was in prison because he was an activist, stating in 
English that he was a "prisoner of conscience."  He argued at length 
that Vietnamese law was not in compliance with international human 
rights instruments to which Vietnam had acceded and the Government 
of Vietnam did not understand nor respect religious freedom.  Ly 
said he did not have access to a Bible; the Ambassador subsequently 
raised this issue with the warden, who responded that one would be 
provided.  Ly thanked the USG for its efforts on his case, noting in 
particular ConGen HCMC's efforts on behalf of his family.  Father Ly 
said it was "up to God" when he would be released, as he would never 
give up his principles and was prepared to stay in prison the rest 
of his life.  End Summary. 
 
¶2. (SBU) Political activist and Catholic priest Nguyen Van Ly 
("Father Ly") is serving an eight year prison sentence at Ba Sao 
prison, in the hills of Ha Nam Province, approximately 1.5 hours 
south of Hanoi.  Ly was convicted by the Thua Thien-Hue People's 
Court on March 30, 2007 of "spreading propaganda against the State," 
in violation of Article 88 of the GVN criminal code (Reftel). 
According to Prison Commander (Warden) Duong Duc Thang, there are 
approximately 2,000 prisoners at Ba Sao.  Ba Sao is one of two major 
prisons in Vietnam known to house political prisoners, who 
constitute a small fraction of the prison's total population. 
 
¶3. (SBU) Before Ly was escorted into the prison conference room to 
meet the Ambassador, prison warden Duong Duc Thang, who has worked 
at Ba Sao prison for the last 30 years, discussed Ly's case with the 
Ambassador.  He noted that Ly was spending his third stint at Ba Sao 
prison and that in Vietnam "we say three strikes and you're out." 
He said Ly had been last amnestied in 2005, and the prison officials 
hoped they would not see him again.  However, Ly continued to 
"violate the law," leading to his re-arrest and re-imprisonment in 
March 2007.  Thang told the Ambassador he hoped he would tell 
prisoner Ly to comply with Vietnamese law so he could enjoy the 
policy of Vietnamese clemency in the shortest period of time.  Thang 
told the Ambassador he could speak with Ly for 30-40 minutes (Note: 
the conversation actually turned out to last closer to 75 minutes. 
End Note.)  The Ambassador underscored to the warden USG interest in 
the rule of law in Vietnam and particular USG concern for Ly's case, 
noting that we had called for Ly's release and would continue to do 
so. 
 
PHYSICAL APPEARANCE AND PRISON CONDITIONS 
----------------------------------------- 
 
¶4. (SBU) Father Ly appeared both in good health and spirits, and 
spoke strongly and passionately.  At different times, he both 
laughed and argued vociferously with prison officials, challenging 
the warden and even the Ambassador's interpreter, whom he criticized 
for not always interpreting his words accurately.  Ly remains feisty 
and committed to his beliefs and convictions.  He showed neither 
regret nor repentance.  Ly did not know in advance he would be 
meeting with the Ambassador; he was only told that he would "have 
visitors." 
 
¶5. (SBU) According to Ly, this is his fourth time in prison, and he 
has been incarcerated by the Vietnamese State for a total of over 
ten years.  Ly is allowed to read two local newspapers, Phap Luat 
(Law) and Nhan Dan (Party Daily), provided to him by his family 
members.  He has not been allowed access to a Bible that his family 
sent to him.  Prison officials retain it, though they said he may be 
able to access it at a later date. 
 
LY ANGRY OVER PRISON UNIFORM 
---------------------------- 
 
¶6. (SBU) Upon meeting the Ambassador, Ly noted that, though he spoke 
English, he was asked by the prison officials to speak only in 
Vietnamese.  He then went on angrily for 20 minutes about being 
forced to wear a green and white striped prison uniform for the 
meeting.  He said the prison officials had pointedly done this to 
make him "look and feel like a criminal."  He said that normally he 
would not agree to these conditions, but that he was a "flexible 
person."  His one condition was that nobody be allowed to take a 
photograph of him without his permission, as photos would be used by 
the State to depict him as a criminal.  Ly then told the Ambassador 
in English, with the warden quickly admonishing him to use only 
Vietnamese, "I am a prisoner here, but I am not a criminal;" and 
later, "I am a prisoner of conscience." 
 
 
HANOI 00000286  002 OF 004 
 
 
¶7. (SBU) Ly said that, despite his oppression, he maintained "good 
will" and "great relations with humanity."  He told the Ambassador 
that complicated issues could be solved through good will and that 
there were solutions for all issues, noting the Israeli-Palestinian 
conflict as an example.  He said he had tried not to complicate the 
U.S. - Vietnam relationship with his case as he did not want to 
hinder "integration" of the relationship.  He noted that the USG had 
"good will," and therefore could solve problems.  Ly told the 
Ambassador that he was in prison because he is an activist that had 
principles in his struggle.  He said he was neither a criminal nor 
an extremist, but he had to remain a fighter to continue his 
struggle. 
 
GVN LAW INCOMPATIBLE WITH INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS 
--------------------------------------------- ------ 
 
¶8. (SBU) Ly said that, according to both the Universal Declaration 
on Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and 
Political Rights (ICCPR), he had the right to speak freely. 
However, under GVN law, the State could charge him on any one of 
many charges, as GVN law is not compatible with international human 
rights instruments to which Vietnam has acceded.  Ly said that for 
speaking his mind in Vietnam he could be charged under GVN law with: 
 "spreading propaganda against the State;" "taking advantage of 
democratic rights;" "disrupting public order;" and even "spying." 
At that point, the warden intervened and Ly argued with him before 
he was allowed to continue.  Ly noted that even at his trial GVN 
authorities had made a point to state that international human 
rights covenants were not a concern, and asked rhetorically why the 
GVN acceded to these instruments if they do not follow them.  Ly 
said authorities muzzled him four times at his March 2007 trial when 
he tried to defend himself, taking him to an isolation room. 
 
¶9. (SBU) Ly explained to the Ambassador that he had "chosen a 
different path," by choosing hardship in order to find a way to 
eliminate those provisions of Vietnamese law that were not in 
accordance with international law.  He accepted this hardship with 
the hope that a day would come when things would change in Vietnam 
for the better. 
 
¶10. (SBU) Ly said family members had visited him four or five times 
since his March 2007 incarceration.  His family sends him both the 
local Phap Luat (Law) and Nhan Dan (Party Daily) newspapers.  Ly was 
particularly grateful for the efforts of the Consul General and 
staff of ConGen HCMC for inviting his family to the Consulate on two 
occasions, including one during which they spoke with visiting CODEL 
Hoyer. 
 
LY NOT ALLOWED ACCESS TO A BIBLE 
-------------------------------- 
 
¶11. (SBU) Ly said his family had sent him a Bible but he was not 
allowed to read it, as the prison management retained it.  He noted 
a 2004 prison visit by Senator Sam Brownback, at which he said he 
was given a Bible and allowed to retain it as well as other 
religious books.  However, for this imprisonment, he is not allowed 
to read such religious texts, claiming he was told by the prison 
management that "new prison regulations are more stringent."  Ly 
said he nonetheless prayed without a Bible up to one hundred times a 
day, praying for his fellow inmates, the prison officials, GVN Prime 
Minister Nguyen Tan Dung, President Bush, the USG, and for those 
suffering in Iraq and Afghanistan. 
 
¶12. (SBU) Later, the Ambassador engaged the warden on the issue of 
Ly not having access to a Bible.  The warden clarified that it was 
not prison policy to deny prisoners access to a Bible per se, but 
rather a matter of when Ly would be allowed access.  The Ambassador 
urged the warden to show goodwill, to take into consideration 
international opinion, and resolve this minor request by allowing 
Father Ly to read his Bible.  The warden responded positively that 
he could now allow Ly access to his Bible, noting that the prison 
otherwise paid "more than adequate attention" to Ly's day-to-day 
living conditions. 
 
USG AND GVN UNDERSTAND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM DIFFERENTLY 
--------------------------------------------- ------- 
 
¶13. (SBU) Father Ly said the USG and GVN understood religious 
freedom much differently.  He said the USG understands and "loves" 
religious freedom while in Vietnam religious freedom was not truly 
allowed nor respected.  Ly cited various provisions in different 
parts of Vietnamese law about religion "spreading superstitious 
beliefs" and individuals "not being allowed to make the sign of the 
cross."  Ly said he remains constant to his principles on religious 
freedom and had drafted and disseminated, in the past a 22-page 
document analyzing religious freedom in Vietnam. 
 
¶14. (SBU) The Ambassador told Ly that the USG was actively engaged 
 
HANOI 00000286  003 OF 004 
 
 
with the GVN on this issue.  He explained that the USG had an annual 
human rights dialogue with the GVN, in which religious freedom, 
freedom of expression, and media freedoms, among others were all 
actively discussed.  The Ambassador assured Ly that the USG would 
continue to speak out about human rights and agreed that, for 
progress to happen, both sides needed to maintain goodwill. 
 
LY ON RULE OF LAW 
----------------- 
 
¶15. (SBU) Father Ly told the Ambassador that it would take 
"generations" for Vietnam to build up rule of law, noting that it 
took the United States 200 years to build its legal system, and even 
then it was still not perfect.  He said that Vietnamese law be made 
compatible with international law only through "collaborative 
efforts of the Ambassador as a diplomat, himself as an activist, and 
prison officials.  Ly said he accepts his imprisonment to achieve 
his goals and saw himself as a "peace activist" and "champion of 
peace" for the Vietnamese people, a comment which drew laughs from 
the prison officials.  Ly reiterated that it was never his intention 
to cause disruption and stir up disorder in Vietnam.  Unfortunately 
the GVN considered his actions outside of prison dangerous, and he 
had to accept this. 
 
"GOD WILL DECIDE WHEN I AM RELEASED" 
----------------------------------- 
 
¶16. (SBU) As for prospects for release, Ly noted that the USG wanted 
him out of prison and even the prison officials wanted him out, but 
he did not necessarily want to get out.  Ly stressed that he was not 
working for himself, but rather for a greater good.  Even if he were 
released, Ly said he would still "continue his work" and likely be 
arrested again.  Ultimately, only God would decide when he is 
released, Ly said; he is prepared to spend the rest of his life in 
prison to continue his struggle. 
 
¶17. (SBU) Ly told the Ambassador to tell the USG that the GVN really 
did not want to imprison him for a long time, but his release would 
depend on goodwill and solutions among the GVN, USG and other 
players, such as the Catholic Church.  He said goodwill was 
something everybody shared.  Ly said we all want the Vietnamese to 
live in happiness and "to become a civilized country," which led to 
an interjection from the warden.  And he said we all want the 
Vietnamese people to have basic freedoms, including "human rights, 
democracy, and freedom of speech." 
 
LY ON FREEDOM OF SPEECH 
----------------------- 
 
¶18. (SBU) Ly said freedom of speech in Vietnam was extremely 
important but unfortunately its meaning was much different from that 
in the United States.  For you, he told the Ambassador, freedom of 
speech "really means it; it is real for you."  But freedom of speech 
was built upon a legal foundation.  Before Ly left the room, he told 
the Ambassador to please understand both our (USG - GVN) fundamental 
differences and what we have in common. 
 
¶19. (SBU) In a wrap-up session with the prison warden, the warden 
said the Ambassador should understand that Ly "spoke to his favor," 
and has "extremist tendencies," noting how well he knew him well 
from his various incarcerations at the prison.  The warden noted 
that the GVN Constitution does provide for many of the rights that 
Father Ly talked about and added that, at Ly's March 2007 trial, the 
police officer muzzled Ly (in photos now made famous around the 
world on the Internet) only as a spontaneous reaction to Ly's 
screaming and kicking down the podium, which was not shown on 
television. 
 
¶20. (SBU) The Ambassador responded that Father Ly was right in that 
goodwill was needed on both sides on these issues.  He appreciated 
the warden's demonstration of goodwill by providing Ly his Bible and 
allowing a longer than usual prison visit.  He noted that the USG 
position was that individuals should be allowed their different 
thoughts on their country's political future and that the USG will 
be continuing these discussions with the GVN. 
 
COMMENT: LY IN GOOD HEALTH, CONVICTIONS STRONG 
--------------------------------------------- - 
 
¶21. (SBU) We found Ly to be in surprisingly good health and spirits, 
strong and uncowed by his long imprisonment.  Although perhaps less 
defiant than at his March 2007 trial, Ly remains committed to his 
principles and true to his convictions.  He is clearly a political 
prisoner but unlikely to repent in order to receive amnesty, which 
may complicate international efforts on his case.  Despite some 
initial emotional outbursts, Ly's arguments on Vietnamese legal 
reform and religious freedom were rational.  Outside of his denial 
of a Bible, his prison conditions appear to be adequate.  ConGen 
 
HANOI 00000286  004 OF 004 
 
 
HCMC remains in close contact with his visiting family members. 
 
MICHALAK