VZCZCXRO1500
PP RUEHCHI RUEHDT RUEHNH
DE RUEHHM #1233/01 3480350
ZNR UUUUU ZZH
P 140350Z DEC 07
FM AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH CITY
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 3442
INFO RUEHHI/AMEMBASSY HANOI PRIORITY 2362
RUCNASE/ASEAN MEMBER COLLECTIVE
RUEHHM/AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH CITY 3661

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 03 HO CHI MINH CITY 001233 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
SIPDIS 
 
STATE FOR EAP/MLS, DRL/IRF, DRL/AWH 
 
E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PGOV PREL KIRF VM
SUBJECT: USCIRF IN HCMC: PROTESTANT HOUSE CHURCH LEADERS 
 
REF: HCMC 1021 
 
HO CHI MIN 00001233  001.2 OF 003 
 
 
Summary 
------- 
¶1. (SBU) The USCIRF delegation kicked off their visit to Ho Chi 
Minh City on October 24 with a house church roundtable of 
Protestant leaders from the Assembly of God, United Baptist 
Church, United Gospel Outreach Church and Baptist Alliance 
Church congregations in Vietnam.  The pastors were unified in 
their view that while there have been positive changes with 
respect to religious freedom in Vietnam since the new legal 
framework was implemented in 2004, problems persist.  Issues 
raised by the pastors primarily focused on their dealings with 
local-level officials in the provinces, including demands for 
lists of church members and harassment from authorities.  Many 
expressed frustration over the delays and complications with the 
registration process.  While the pastors forcefully recounted 
their troubles to the USCIRF delegation, their presentations 
also made it clear that they have all developed an ongoing 
dialogue with various branches of the GVN and pastors expressed 
no qualms about raising their concerns to the highest levels 
when warranted.  The pastors also believed the GVN's change of 
policy has not yet translated into a change in attitude, and 
agreed with the USCIRF's position that certain religious 
activities are construed as "political" by the GVN.  End summary. 
 
Problems in the Provinces 
------------------------- 
¶2. (SBU) Commissioners Cromartie, Bansal, Eid, Gaer, and Argue 
and staffers Scott Flipse and David Dettoni attended the house 
church roundtable with Protestant leaders Pastor Duong Thanh Lam 
from the Assembly of God (AOG), Pastor Pham Toan Ai from the 
United Baptist Church, Pastor Daniel Pham Dinh Nhan from the 
United Gospel Outreach Church (UGOC), and Pastor Henry Nguyen 
Ngoc Hien from the Baptist Alliance Church.  All of the pastors 
represent denominations that have yet to be officially 
recognized by the GVN.  While all agreed that conditions for 
their congregations have improved since the implementation of 
the legal framework on religion in 2004, they also noted ongoing 
problems in the provinces and frustrations with the registration 
process.  The pastors' reactions to the religious regulations 
ranged from resignation to indignation as they discussed the 
common problems they shared, which included: 
 
--lack of local-level officials' knowledge of the legal 
framework on religion, resulting in inaction or delays on church 
registrations; 
 
--local officials demanding lists of followers for each 
congregation (not required by law) and then using the lists to 
interrogate followers at their homes; 
 
--harassment of leaders and followers in the Northwest, the 
Delta, and the Central Highlands, with harassment ranging from 
confiscating Bibles to beatings, detentions and public 
denouncement sessions;  (The pastors said it is not usually 
uniformed police, but "hired thugs" who are intimidating their 
followers.) 
 
--denial of GVN benefits (poverty reduction, veteran's and 
disabled persons benefits) to practitioners in an effort to 
dissuade them from following the church. 
 
What Every Protestant Should Know 
--------------------------------- 
¶3. (SBU) Since 2004, the pastors believe attempts by the GVN to 
stop the spread of Protestantism have become less overt, but 
were still evident.  The pastors showed the USCIRF delegation a 
small purple pamphlet called "Things Every Protestant Needs to 
Know," which they said was being circulated among their 
followers, especially in the Central Highlands.  The pamphlet is 
full of anti-Protestant invective that accuses churches of 
propagating anti-scientific ideas, inveigling followers into 
giving up their wages, and calls pastors "CIA spies" and "tools 
of the US."  When the USCIRF asked the pastors whom they thought 
was responsible for the pamphlet, the pastors replied that only 
the government or the police would be able to publish and 
disseminate materials on such a large scale.  (Comment: The 
pastors are almost certainly correct; the GVN maintains tight 
control in this area and unauthorized pamphleteering is treated 
as a serious offense.) 
 
¶4. (SBU) Pastor Henry, who often dominated the discussion at the 
roundtable, said he had also secretly obtained a GVN training 
manual that codifies the GVN's approach to Protestantism.  He 
said the manual divides followers into three categories: 
long-term believers who have studied theology and church 
doctrine, baptized laypeople who have not studied religious 
theory, and new members who are not yet baptized.  Pastor Henry 
believes the GVN is concentrating its efforts on trying to 
 
HO CHI MIN 00001233  002.2 OF 003 
 
 
dissuade new, non-baptized followers from continuing with their 
faith using the intimidation tactics and the discriminatory 
treatment noted above. 
 
Recognition With Conditions 
--------------------------- 
¶5. (SBU) Most pastors reported registering congregations has 
been slow and uneven in terms of the application of the legal 
framework.  Congregations in Ho Chi Minh City and provincial 
capitals seemed to have the best experiences and fastest 
processing times, with a few notable exceptions.  Pastor Lam 
from the AOG said that the congregation's leadership had been 
approached by the Committee on Religious Affairs (CRA) in 
October as part of the GVN's effort to finalize national 
registration procedures for several churches that had been 
operating in Vietnam before 1975, including Baptist, Mennonite 
and Presbyterian groups (reftel).  The CRA told AOG they could 
qualify for national registration, but only if they changed 
their organizational structure and their charter.  Lam said 
changing the AOG's organization and charter were non-starters, 
as both are an inherent part of their history and faith, now 
practiced by approximately 57 million people in over 200 
countries.  Lam also told the CRA that the AOG's structure was 
an internal church matter, and did not violate the GVN's laws or 
regulations.  Lam said due to the AOG's unwillingness to make 
changes, discussions with the CRA were now at a standstill. 
 
¶6. (SBU) While most pastors agreed their congregations were now 
meeting freely whether they were registered or not, several said 
recent registrations had specified the times and days groups 
were allowed to meet.  Pastor Daniel from UGOC also said two 
denominations in HCMC had received registrations valid only for 
one year.  (Note: This is the first time post has received 
reports of registrations "expiring" after a specified period of 
time.)  When asked by Commissioner Bansal whether registration 
was a worthwhile endeavor, most pastors said that although the 
process was slow and flawed, it was still a process that allowed 
them to engage constructively with the GVN and work towards 
eventual national recognition. 
 
Registration Scorecard 
---------------------- 
¶7. (SBU) From the numbers reported by the pastors, it was 
evident that their congregations are growing in Vietnam, but 
registration processing was slow-moving. 
 
Assembly of God--350 meeting points, 25,000 followers, only 30 
successfully registered 
 
Vietnam Baptist Convention--161 meeting points, only 18 
successfully registered pre-WTO, none registered after, 6 
registrations denied 
 
United Gospel Outreach Church--200 congregations, 16,000 
followers, 127 registrations filed, only 16 successfully 
registered (all in the South). 
 
United Baptist Church--90 meeting points, 60 registrations 
filed, 4 successfully registered 
 
Change in Policy, Not in Attitude 
--------------------------------- 
¶8. (SBU) As the meeting drew to a close, the pastors expressed 
their thanks for the USCIRF's and USG's support, noting their 
belief that international pressure and advocacy were forcing the 
GVN to adopt a policy of religious freedom as part of their 
overall global integration strategy.  The pastors were also 
skeptical that the GVN's change in policy has translated into a 
real change in attitudes.  All the pastors agreed that while 
their GVN interlocutors are putting a more positive face on 
relations these days, officials were still employing a variety 
of tactics to dissuade followers from practicing Protestantism. 
The difference now is that intimidation and harassment are more 
likely to be carried out by plainclothes security personnel 
rather than uniformed police.  When Commissioner Gaer asked if 
the pastors thought GVN perceived their activities as 
"religious" but their communications with American organizations 
like USCIRF and USG as "political," the pastors nodded agreement 
in unison. 
 
 
Comment 
------- 
¶9. (SBU) The pastors at the roundtable gave honest and open 
accounts of their experiences, and answered the CIRF 
delegation's questions in the same manner they answer the 
Consulate's.  Many of the pastors have likened their 
relationship with the GVN to a "parent giving out sweets one 
candy at a time."  While there is more freedom, it has its 
 
HO CHI MIN 00001233  003.2 OF 003 
 
 
limits.  Pastor Henry's passport was confiscated by authorities 
after several "unauthorized" trips to Cambodia, and he believes 
his outspoken criticism of the GVN's policy as well as his 
unwillingness to divulge names of his followers is part of the 
reason his group seems to be faring worse than others.  Indeed, 
he said his congregations experienced more freedoms before the 
GVN joined the WTO.  Other pastors have developed a much more 
comfortable dialogue with their GVN interlocutors, though that 
has not prevented their congregations from facing problems from 
time to time.  As post has reported previously, while the GVN's 
religious freedom policy is broad, implementation remains narrow. 
 
¶10. (U) This cable was coordinated with Embassy Hanoi. 
FAIRFAX