VZCZCXRO3010
PP RUEHCHI RUEHDT RUEHNH
DE RUEHHM #1192/01 3381046
ZNR UUUUU ZZH
P 041046Z DEC 07
FM AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH CITY
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 3388
INFO RUEHHI/AMEMBASSY HANOI PRIORITY 2323
RUCNASE/ASEAN MEMBER COLLECTIVE
RUEHHM/AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH CITY 3605

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 02 HO CHI MINH CITY 001192 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
SIPDIS 
 
STATE FOR EAP/MLS, DRL/IRF, DRL/AWH 
 
E.O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PGOV PREL KIRF VM
SUBJECT: USCIRF MEETS HCMC GVN: CITY COUNCIL CHAIR MADAME THAO 
 
 
HO CHI MIN 00001192  001.2 OF 002 
 
 
Summary 
------- 
¶1. (SBU) During the US Commission on International Religious 
Freedom (CIRF) delegation's meeting with HCMC People's Council 
Chairwoman Pham Phuong Thao on October 25, Commissioners cited 
outstanding issues that marred the GVN's record of progress on 
religious freedom, including limitations with the GVN's legal 
framework on religion, harassment and surveillance of religious 
groups and the failure of the GVN to return church properties. 
Chairwoman Thao pointed out the positive, citing examples of GVN 
initiatives that support Vietnam's largest population of 
religious followers. She also said that HCMC's government was 
striving to balance rapid economic growth with its citizen's 
social welfare and quality of life needs--including the freedom 
to practice their faith.  Thao also welcomed a broader dialogue 
with religious groups, encouraged them to report specific 
problems via the Council's public hotline, and invited CIRF to 
send a list of groups with specific concerns directly to her 
office.  End summary. 
 
The USCIRF Position 
------------------- 
¶2. (SBU) While the USCIRF delegation acknowledged positive 
developments since the GVN adopted a policy of religious 
freedom, they also told Madame Thao, that restrictions on 
religious groups--some of which they attribute to the legal 
framework on religion-- overshadow the progress made thus far. 
The Commissioners said that religious freedom must be expanded 
by returning confiscated church property, removing restrictions 
on religious groups' involvement in vocational, educational, 
medical, and other charitable activities and addressing 
harassment of religious leaders and practitioners. 
 
HCMC's Leadership Role 
---------------------- 
¶3. (U) Chairwoman Thao said HCMC's government took a very 
dynamic and creative approach to fostering economic development, 
which has made the city a leader in terms of Vietnam's 
integration into the global economy and international community. 
 As the largest city in the country with highest growth rate 
(averaging ten-plus percent over the past decade with an 
expected rate of 12% for this year), Thao acknowledged the 
challenge of maintaining social stability and improving living 
conditions for HCMC's residents while promoting further growth. 
Thao said expanding the city's infrastructure, restructuring the 
economy around technology rather than more labor intensive 
industries, and streamlining government procedures through 
public administration reform were all major challenges the HCMC 
government grapples with daily. 
 
¶4. (U) Thao affirmed that effective implementation of the legal 
framework on religion is an important part of HCMC's ongoing 
development, as Ho Chi Minh City has the largest number of 
religious followers in Vietnam, with roughly one-third of the 
city's 8.5 million residents practicing a religion.  The 
Chairwoman described a thriving religious community consisting 
of approximately 2,000 congregations and 1,500 places of 
worship.  She added that permission was granted for 68 new 
religious sites to be constructed in the past year alone. 
Madame Thao said HCMC authorities do everything in their power 
to guarantee and safeguard the freedom of religion and gave 
examples of government support for religious festivals during 
Christmastime and the various Buddhist festivals held throughout 
the year.  Thao also said the GVN provides support for opening 
religious training institutes, gives incentives and "favorable 
treatment" to religious institutions looking for land (citing 
the example of a 20 hectare plot recently set aside for the 
building of a Buddhist temple), and facilitates the upgrade of 
existing places of worship.  Thao also noted the importance of 
the more than 200 faith-based educational and training 
institutions playing an active role in charitable activities. 
 
Chairwoman Thao's Vow 
--------------------- 
¶5. (SBU) Commissioner Gaer raised concerns that the legal 
framework on religion was being used by the Vietnamese 
government to control religious groups, citing instances where 
GVN authorities have delayed or denied registration of new 
religious groups as well as reports of surveillance by local 
officials after churches provided the names of their followers. 
(Note: While providing names of followers is not required by 
law, several house church leaders have said GVN authorities 
request lists of practitioners as part of the registration 
process.  End note.) Gaer asked whether the GVN had given any 
consideration to establishing a hotline for religious groups to 
report problems with the authorities. 
 
¶6. (SBU) Chairwoman Thao said the Vietnamese government is doing 
its utmost to implement the ordinance but acknowledged some 
 
HO CHI MIN 00001192  002.2 OF 002 
 
 
shortcomings in execution will always occur, as matters often 
unfold much differently in reality than in theory.  Thao said 
the GVN has organized training seminars for civil servants to 
teach them about the religious ordinance in order to facilitate 
its implementation.  Thao said HCMC is limited in its ability to 
directly influence what goes on in other provinces and can only 
seek to persuade officials by sharing its own positive 
experiences.  That said, Thao believes the dialogue between the 
government and the public on numerous issues--including 
religion--has grown over the past few years.  In HCMC, citizens 
can communicate with city officials via telephone hotline, 
email, or post, as well as at town hall meetings held several 
times a year. 
 
¶7. (SBU) Thao said while there was no separate religious issues 
hotline, groups could report issues via the public hotline and 
reports of religious abuses would be given priority.  Thao 
offered to sit down and discuss specific concerns with any 
religious groups facing problems and invited the USCIRF to send 
a list of groups reporting problems to her office so that she 
could look into their cases directly (Note:Consul General 
Fairfax gave Madame Thao USCIRF's letter and list on November 
¶30. End note). Thao also expressed surprise over Commissioner 
Gaer's comment regarding GVN surveillance and said that 
organizations and individuals should not be surveilled if they 
are undertaking "normal religious activities."  She also said 
that no one in HCMC should be asking for lists of the members of 
churches. 
 
The UBCV Question 
----------------- 
¶8. (SBU) Commissioner Bansal asked Councilwoman Thao whether 
government would consider opening a dialogue with other Buddhist 
groups like the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam (UBCV) and 
allow them to organize independently and operate legally in Ho 
Chi Minh City.  Chairwoman Thao said the UBCV was one of nine 
Buddhist denominations integrated into the Vietnamese Buddhist 
Sangha in 1981 and therefore no longer an independent legal 
entity in Vietnam.  Thao said UBCV members are free to practice 
their religion and participate in charitable activities, but not 
under the banner of the UBCV.  Chairwoman Thao gave examples of 
two other officially recognized religions with Buddhist 
underpinnings--the Hoa Hao and the Cao Dai.  Thao said HCMC's 
500 Hoa Hao leaders and followers have their own temple and the 
city is currently considering a request from Hoa Hao 
headquarters in An Giang province to open a representative 
office in Ho Chi Minh City.  Thao said the Cao Dai currently 
have eleven different congregations located around the city, and 
ordained the largest number of church leaders ever over the past 
year.  In addition, city authorities provided assistance for 
training clergy and registered two new Cao Dai denominations 
this year. 
 
Church Property: Borrowed vs. Given 
----------------------------------- 
¶9. (SBU) Addressing CIRF's questions about church property taken 
by the government shortly after 1975, Chairwoman Thao made a 
distinction between "borrowed" properties and "given" 
properties.  Thao said properties that had been formally "given" 
to the government will not be returned, but assured the 
Commission the land was being used for purposes consistent with 
the intentions of the religious organizations who gave the 
government the land.  Thao said former church property that had 
been "borrowed" by the government is now being returned. 
 
¶10. (SBU) COMMENT:  While towing the GVN company line on issues 
like the UBCV and GVN church property, Thao was frank in 
acknowledging uneven implementation of the legal framework 
throughout Vietnam and open to reviewing specific instances of 
unfair treatment experienced by churches in Ho Chi Minh City. 
CIRF noted Thao's responsiveness and offer to review specific 
cases of religious freedom violations and expressed their 
intention to follow-up on this offer.  Post will work with the 
CIRF and church leaders to assist in compiling a list of cases 
of for a follow up letter to Chairwoman Thao.  End comment. 
 
¶11. (U) This cable was coordinated with Embassy Hanoi. 
FAIRFAX